The Lions squad for 2021 prediction

[TRF_heineken]

British and Irish Lions: Maro Itoje backed by Sam Warburton to captain 2021 side

England's Maro Itoje is backed to lead the British and Irish Lions against South Africa this summer by the man who captained the last two tours.

www.bbc.co.uk

So discipline is not going to be a priority...

 

[Bada-Bing!]

So discipline is not going to be a priority...

Sure it will be. It's just Warburton's opinion. He's not actually choosing his successor.

 

[ncurd]

So discipline is not going to be a priority...

It would actually be one of those interesting things, Itoje is one of those players who plays on the edge and when he gets it right hes a real menace and he can do on multiple occasions in a match. The problem is also multiple times he'll go over that edge and be more a hindrance to his team. Theres a real question out there asking two things.

1) With the captaincy would it reign him just that little bit required so he's usually on the right side of ref of the wrong side.
2) Could it be a coaching issue (indiscipline with England in general is terrible) in which case could it be Gatland could be actually useful. For all the completely shite way Wales played under him no one can argue they weren't well drilled or canny operators of the ref.

 

[TRF_heineken]

It would actually be one of those interesting things, Itoje is one of those players who plays on the edge and when he gets it right hes a real menace and he can do on multiple occasions in a match. The problem is also multiple times he'll go over that edge and be more a hindrance to his team. Theres a real question out there asking two things.

1) With the captaincy would it reign him just that little bit required so he's usually on the right side of ref of the wrong side.
2) Could it be a coaching issue (indiscipline with England in general is terrible) in which case could it be Gatland could be actually useful. For all the completely shite way Wales played under him no one can argue they weren't well drilled or canny operators of the ref.

Dylan Hartley

 

[ncurd]

Dylan Hartley

Point being? The guy was a thug not ill disciplined in the same way as Itoje. Interestingly being captain could be used as a prime example of how being captain can reign a player in having served 60 weeks of bans before being England captain his very last ban being served just before his first game in charge.

Either way if think Itoje is thug of Hartley ilk your way off the mark. He makes braindead penalties not dangerous ones.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

2) Could it be a coaching issue (indiscipline with England in general is terrible)

I honestly think he was told to push the limits as much as possible in the first few 6N games - after those he reigned it in massively
Conceded less penalties in the last three games combined than he did in the first two


That said I'm unsure about him being captain - he's not done it since u20s, even at club level Barritt's armband has gone to Farrell

 

[TRF_heineken]

Point being? The guy was a thug not ill disciplined in the same way as Itoje. Interestingly being captain could be used as a prime example of how being captain can reign a player in having served 60 weeks of bans before being England captain his very last ban being served just before his first game in charge.

Either way if think Itoje is thug of Hartley ilk your way off the mark. He makes braindead penalties not dangerous ones.

Guys with bad discipline tend to be worse against us as we have a knack to agitate and frustrate opposing players. Guys like Bakkies Botha, and Schalk Burger, even though they were thugs too, had the ability to get under the opposition's skin and make them make silly/stupid mistakes.

Or is Itoje going to be used to be their talisman captain like Kolisi is for us...

 

[Welsh Exile]

Yeah, you're right.

The Lions will win by 50 in each test.

As a South African who has lived in Cardiff for 17 years, your attitude is totally expected. I have never seen anything better.

I'm starting to miss England

I was being deliberately over the top but yeah, I think the Lions will win the series.

They should be pretty close games but I'm expecting a 2-1 series win for the Lions. You're just going to have to deal with that.

If they had a lot of rugby under their belts over the last 2 years and it was confirmed that fans are in the stadiums I'd probably go with a narrow South Africa series win

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Guys with bad discipline tend to be worse against us as we have a knack to agitate and frustrate opposing players. Guys like Bakkies Botha, and Schalk Burger, even though they were thugs too, had the ability to get under the opposition's skin and make them make silly/stupid mistakes.

Or is Itoje going to be used to be their talisman captain like Kolisi is for us...

That is one argument ie the symbolic nature of Itoje as Lions captain of African ancestry. His parents are from Nigeria IIRC. Unlike Kolisi Maro would not have time to grow into the role, which is why an experienced leadership group around him would be vital.

Yes, there is the inexperience factor and burden of being Lions captain and also having to do the press conferences etc.

AWJ still looks like he will be favorite.

 

[big ginger 8]

Interesting that Warburton was talking about Gatland having a preference for heavier locks but still saying it's Itoje nailed on and then between Ryan and AWJ for him. Really think when it comes to test time we could we'll see Henderson in the 23.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Yep, and that Maro is pretty much nailed on for the 4 shirt. He would not be chosen just because he is black.

But can't get away from the connotations and this being a Lions tour of SA and what it would mean of him being the first black captain of a the BIL. In light of BLM.

But of course he has to be chosen on merit.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Having Itoje nailed on is a bit of a mistake in my opinion. At his best he's the best lock available with only Ryan having the potential to get close but this isn't his first extended run of bad form and in 2018 it got worse before it got better. He obviously tours and is favourite to start but definitely should be in a battle with Henderson to join AWJ or Ryan in the row. Any combination of those pairs has a nice balance to it.

 

[big ginger 8]

Warburton's list of nailed on players is interesting actually. Some are obvious but I'm not sure if some of them should be considered nailed on starters.

Furlong, Itoje, Curry, Faletau, Watson and Hogg. Also says he had Sexton as nailed on but after his removal vs Exeter he doesn't see him as nailed on due to injury concerns.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Form is temporary as they say. Class is permanent. Maro is a test match animal in Geech's words.

Is Henderson being considered as a 6 anymore?

 

[big ginger 8]

Form is temporary as they say. Class is permanent. Maro is a test match animal in Geech's words.

Is Henderson being considered as a 6 anymore?

Can't remember the last time he played 6, maybe slotted in there on a mid-week game last tour. Mostly a tighthead lock these days. Did show he still has a good burst on him once or twice this 6N.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Hendo would be prime for the tighthead lock if he makes the test team. If not then the number 19 shirt to cover both lock and 6 would be seem ideal.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Never liked the idea of Itoje as captain for this. Still don't. Feels like a choice that could be inspired or disastrous, but probably not OK.

Form is temporary as they say. Class is permanent. Maro is a test match animal in Geech's words.

Last sighted roaming the plains of the RWC semi final. Since then he's had his moments, but he really hasn't consistently been anywhere near the levels his reputation has been built on. Still, I'm sure a couple of games against Hartpury and Ampthill will get him suitably battle hardened.

 

[Dean Cooperfield-West]

We shouldn't pick the best locks as far as ability goes. There's a danger they won't gel and the sum of their overall game is less than the individual sum of their parts. Itoje and AWJ played OK together in 2017, maybe they equalled their individual parts. I don't think it was the best partnership for a second row.

Itoje and Beirne with Watson coming on later would be good combinations in my mind. I'd want to see how they play in the warm up matches.

Same for the fly half and centre pairings.

 

[Jakedood]

We shouldn't pick the best locks as far as ability goes. There's a danger they won't gel and the sum of their overall game is less than the individual sum of their parts. Itoje and AWJ played OK together in 2017, maybe they equalled their individual parts. I don't think it was the best partnership for a second row.

Itoje and Beirne with Watson coming on later would be good combinations in my mind. I'd want to see how they play in the warm up matches.

Same for the fly half and centre pairings.

Watson in second row?
Ill say that good players gel, BOD worked with near any 12, whether it be D'Arcy or Jamie Roberts
At this level, and combination of those 4 could tear up, all brilliant but itoje is certainly the one with the highest ceiling for me, in how he affects games. Some may disagree but oddly Warburton and I would agree on everything
Also in a short tour with no real background training, you need players who just "play", they see something and do it. You can't make foolproof system in such a short period of time, but the off the cuff players who just play tempo, run good support lines etc, these will be the guys who stand out. A rugby brain is everything

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Wouldn't be surprised to see Gatland go with:
Lock: AWJ + one of Ryan/Gray/Henderson
6: Beirne or Itoje
7: Curry or Watson
8: Faletau

Also wouldn't be overly surprised at a 6/2 bench split

Think they'll load the pack and bench with big boys to try and counterract "the bomb squad" (or what remains of it after injury has taken it's toll)