The Leinster thread

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Probably best that I put my comments in here rather than the match thread.

I hope the performance of the pack today doesn't cover up for the fact that once again Leinster were utterly brain dead behind the scrum. That's the head coach's area of expertise. If it was even competent today, Leinster would have won. The attack is atrocious and shows no sign of improvement even on this the biggest stage. Regime chance is necessary.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Probably best that I put my comments in here rather than the match thread.

I hope the performance of the pack today doesn't cover up for the fact that once again Leinster were utterly brain dead behind the scrum. That's the head coach's area of expertise. If it was even competent today, Leinster would have won. The attack is atrocious and shows no sign of improvement even on this the biggest stage. Regime chance is necessary.

We cannot attack. It's that simple. And, quite frankly, it's ridiculous. Whatever our problems at half back we still have 5 or 6 players who can cause chaos if they're given any space. Our game plan denies us this and leave us as a one trick pony. Our offload and try counts in Europe are shockingly low for a side with this calibre of player. You can argue that Schmidt has done this with Ireland and found success and Cheika did likewise to win a European cup, but those sides were playing far more to their strengths than Leinster are now and most importantly were able to impose their game on almost any opposition.

Without trying to be melodramatic, I worry for our mid-term future if we keep going like this for another season.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

^ You're right. Matt O'Connor has Leinster going down the wrong track. He doesn't think his backups are good enough as evidenced by how he has them playing when they get a chance. He has his first choice team playing 9 man rugby today - the ball doesn't even get to the flyhalf! Why pick distributors at 10 and 12 if you're not going to let them use the ball? Why sign a line busting outside centre in Ben Te'o and then neglect to give him the ball in space in the biggest game of the season? Why moan about lacking ball carriers for much of the season and then not have Cian Healy and Sean O'Brien charge onto the ball at pace? With the game going into extra time, why wait to bring on reinforcements when the game is up rather than being proactive in your substitutions?

Today's game annoyed me because Toulon were there for the taking. The game plan stunted Leinster horribly. I'm sure the fact that it went to extra time will be used by Matt O'Connor as justification for the style of rugby that was played today. As a rugby fan such negative play sickens me. Like it or not, rugby is in the entertainment industry. Who'd voluntarily tune in to watch that? People used to bemoan Munster's 10 man rugby of old. What Leinster are doing is a poor imitation of that.

 

[Feicarsinn]

^ You're right. Matt O'Connor has Leinster going down the wrong track. He doesn't think his backups are good enough as evidenced by how he has them playing when they get a chance. He has his first choice team playing 9 man rugby today - the ball doesn't even get to the flyhalf! Why pick distributors at 10 and 12 if you're not going to let them use the ball? Why sign a line busting outside centre in Ben Te'o and then neglect to give him the ball in space in the biggest game of the season? Why moan about lacking ball carriers for much of the season and then not have Cian Healy and Sean O'Brien charge onto the ball at pace? With the game going into extra time, why wait to bring on reinforcements when the game is up rather than being proactive in your substitutions?

Today's game annoyed me because Toulon were there for the taking. The game plan stunted Leinster horribly. I'm sure the fact that it went to extra time will be used by Matt O'Connor as justification for the style of rugby that was played today. As a rugby fan such negative play sickens me. Like it or not, rugby is in the entertainment industry. Who'd voluntarily tune in to watch that? People used to bemoan Munster's 10 man rugby of old. What Leinster are doing is a poor imitation of that.

Well in a sense they're not, at least for the rugby we're playing. For Leinster to win at the moment they require the pack to be utterly on top. This means that we need to be better than the opposition in about 6 of the 8 positions. When this doesn't happen, as you would expect when you're not playing your full strength side, we seriously struggle. See Munster, Treviso, and Dragons this year as evidence.

Simply put, the coach isn't using the resources at his disposal to anywhere close to their full potential. That by itself is grounds for replacement, regardless of style of play.

 

[big ginger 8]

The weather should really be taken into account when discussing the syle of play from today at least. It was absolutely bucketing and both sides knocked on a lot. I was giving out pretty much anytime it went past 12 during the first 60 or so.

 

[Feicarsinn]

The weather should really be taken into account when discussing the syle of play from today at least. It was absolutely bucketing and both sides knocked on a lot. I was giving out pretty much anytime it went past 12 during the first 60 or so.

Which would be grand if we were taking this game in isolation. But if we look at Leinster over the course of the season this is the way they've played rain or shine.

 

[big ginger 8]

Which would be grand if we were taking this game in isolation. But if we look at Leinster over the course of the season this is the way they've played rain or shine.

That's why I said for this game at least. Yes no doubt that over the course of the season our attack hasn't functioned as well as it could, especially in Europe.

 

[goodNumber10]

christ all mighty, O'Connor won the Pro12 last year and has taken the team to a European semifinal and Quarter final, he's working with a less than world class 10 and 12 that Schmidt put in place, has also had to deal with the loss of BOD and the massive dip in form of Darcy long term injury to SOB and Healey so is eesntially rebuilding the Leinster attack from the ground up.

Give the bloke a chance, you've got Sexy Sexton coming back and and guys like Teo and Madigan bedding in.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Brian Ashton took England to a World Cup final.

 

[munstermuffin]

Only real issue now is Leinster will need to get a playoff spot in Pro12 or else next year they'll get a group like Munster got this year if not worst

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

christ all mighty, O'Connor won the Pro12 last year and has taken the team to a European semifinal and Quarter final, he's working with a less than world class 10 and 12 that Schmidt put in place, has also had to deal with the loss of BOD and the massive dip in form of Darcy long term injury to SOB and Healey so is eesntially rebuilding the Leinster attack from the ground up.

Give the bloke a chance, you've got Sexy Sexton coming back and and guys like Teo and Madigan bedding in.

Do you think Matt O'Connor is getting the best out of his players? He has 28 internationals to pick from.

He took Joe Schmidt's team to a European quarter final and won the league. While the rugby he played was turgid, he deserved credit from his first season given he had to bed in replacements for Isa Nacewa and Jonny Sexton. I think most fans were prepared to give him a chance to implement his style on the team.

In his second year he struggled to win a group containing teams who are presently 6th and 8th in the Premiership and bottom of the Top 14. His team have won less than half of their league games and have won just one of their last six games. There's no creativity in the back line (Matt O'Connor is a backs coach primarily), passing accuracy has dropped, kicking accuracy has dropped and we're being fed excuses all the time as to why the team aren't performing. The buck should stop with the coach.

I don't think Leinster are as good as they were from 2008-2013 and am not expecting results like they had during that period. The strength of the team is no longer in the backs but among the forwards. I don't think the coach is implementing a game plan to get the best out of his pack and isn't upskilling his backs to even a passable level. Fifth place in the league is completely unacceptable. His coaching deserves to come under some scrutiny. I believe there are people out there who would do a better job.

 

[munstermuffin]

Snoop out of curiosity who'd you shortlist for the job?
Conor O'Shea? Bernard Jackman? Possibly a Pat Lam or would you say go back to Southern Hemisphere and look?

 

[goodNumber10]

Do you think Matt O'Connor is getting the best out of his players? He has 28 internationals to pick from.

He took Joe Schmidt's team to a European quarter final and won the league. While the rugby he played was turgid, he deserved credit from his first season given he had to bed in replacements for Isa Nacewa and Jonny Sexton. I think most fans were prepared to give him a chance to implement his style on the team.

In his second year he struggled to win a group containing teams who are presently 6th and 8th in the Premiership and bottom of the Top 14. His team have won less than half of their league games and have won just one of their last six games. There's no creativity in the back line (Matt O'Connor is a backs coach primarily), passing accuracy has dropped, kicking accuracy has dropped and we're being fed excuses all the time as to why the team aren't performing. The buck should stop with the coach.

I don't think Leinster are as good as they were from 2008-2013 and am not expecting results like they had during that period. The strength of the team is no longer in the backs but among the forwards. I don't think the coach is implementing a game plan to get the best out of his pack and isn't upskilling his backs to even a passable level. Fifth place in the league is completely unacceptable. His coaching deserves to come under some scrutiny. I believe there are people out there who would do a better job.

LOL! seriously? you sound like they are fighting off relegation.

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Brian Ashton took England to a World Cup final.

what's your point?

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

I believe Matt O'Connor will have the job next season. Working under the assumption that he won't, my preference, and I know a lot of people won't agree, would be for Girvan Dempsey to get the job. I feel the timing is right. With a lot of players going to the World Cup a prospective new coach would be working with largely second string players until November. Dempsey has knowledge of this group through his stellar work as academy director and coach of the A team. He's done the latter job employing a style of rugby alien to the senior setup as late. I hope he's promoted to the role of backs coach next season should O'Connor still be in charge.

Other than Dempsey, Ewen McKenzie may be a fanciful option. Mike Ruddock as a place holder wouldn't be a sexy choice but could do a job. Conor O'Shea's star has begun to fade a little but his experience as a Director of Rugby could be very useful with the right head coach (Dempsey!) below him. I'm not sold on Bernard Jackman as of yet but think 4 or 5 years from now he'll be a candidate. Alex King and Rob Baxter are two wildcard choices.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

LOL! seriously? you sound like they are fighting off relegation.

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what's your point?

Leinster's 2015 form would have them fighting off relegation. They have beaten Ulster, Castres, Zebre and Bath at home this year in 12 games and they've won approximately 50% this year less in the league. Not exactly a stellar defence of a ***le. Europe really flattered them, they won a single away game to a horribly out of sorts Castres and limped through a **** poor group.

 

[goodNumber10]

Leinster's 2015 form would have them fighting off relegation. They have beaten Ulster, Castres, Zebre and Bath at home this year in 12 games and they've won approximately 50% this year less in the league. Not exactly a stellar defence of a ***le. Europe really flattered them, they won a single away game to a horribly out of sorts Castres and limped through a **** poor group.

meh, fair enough i think you're being harsh for a team placed 5th in the league and just gone out of the Euro Cup at the semifinal stage. They are certainly in transition but hardly the whipping boys you lot are making out.

 

[munstermuffin]

I believe Matt O'Connor will have the job next season. Working under the assumption that he won't, my preference, and I know a lot of people won't agree, would be for Girvan Dempsey to get the job. I feel the timing is right. With a lot of players going to the World Cup a prospective new coach would be working with largely second string players until November. Dempsey has knowledge of this group through his stellar work as academy director and coach of the A team. He's done the latter job employing a style of rugby alien to the senior setup as late. I hope he's promoted to the role of backs coach next season should O'Connor still be in charge.

Other than Dempsey, Ewen McKenzie may be a fanciful option. Mike Ruddock as a place holder wouldn't be a sexy choice but could do a job. Conor O'Shea's star has begun to fade a little but his experience as a Director of Rugby could be very useful with the right head coach (Dempsey!) below him. I'm not sold on Bernard Jackman as of yet but think 4 or 5 years from now he'll be a candidate. Alex King and Rob Baxter are two wildcard choices.

Dempsey and Corrigan were 2 who entered my head but would it be similar to Foley here. In that they've been superb with A team but find it tougher in top seat. Alex King is a guy I think will be like Schmidt in few years and is rep coaching continues to grow but think it may be a bit early. Baxter I like but can't see him leaving Exeter. Certainly the choices are there.

 

[Amiga500]

Fifth place in the league is completely unacceptable.

Its even worse than it appears.

You are behind us, who have been various shades of *****e brown throughout the year and Munster, who are rudderless under Axle.

Ospreys are in a transition phase, but seemingly more consistent than Leinster and Glasgow, who deserve to be top of the league.


With the maturity of that Leinster squad, they should be 2nd given the state of the league. Not 10 pts behind 2nd.

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They are certainly in transition

Are they?

You could say there is one player removed from the team who is being replaced with another that is absolutely new to the setup. Te'o in for BOD. Even then, many want Fitz in there for a run.

 

[goodNumber10]

Are they?

You could say there is one player removed from the team who is being replaced with another that is absolutely new to the setup. Te'o in for BOD. Even then, many want Fitz in there for a run.

Yes.

Transition means more than just swapping in and out a few players.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Last year Leinster were a side in transition, new coach, style of play, no Sexton or Isa and BO'D and Cullen coming to an end. Similar in a way to 2010 with Rocky and Contepomi having left the year before and tightening the gameplan further. This year they should at least be seeing structured and fluid rugby if not successful. Talk to most Leinster fans and, accepting that the results were awful, the most damning thing for O'Conner is that his somewhat successful yet limited gameplan from last year has regressed and from a coaching point of view that can't happen.

Leinster's best game this year was yesterday, they lost. Should a side who have upwards of 20 1st tier internationals to choose from's best game of the season be a loss to an under performing Toulon side? I don't think so.