The Leinster thread

[munstermuffin]

Paddy McCarthy next up.

He was announced this morning. But I believe Leinster hand was forced on this as offers had came in from other provinces and abroad.

 

[irisht]

He was announced this morning. But I believe Leinster hand was forced on this as offers had came in from other provinces and abroad.

He was announced officially at 3pm, I'd expect thats the case.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

My point being made by an impartial voice. (Ulster fan)

Tadhg Beirne aside I can think of few enough without a qualification/ limited success.

Conway is another who became an Ireland starter but he was on the cusp of his Leinster breakthrough anyway. I reckon if he could look at the move with zero emotion and consideration of what the move brought him outside of rugby he'd acknowledge that he'd have probably been better off staying.

Loughman, Carbery, Cooney, any one else I can think of that made it as starters in their new province didn't become Ireland or regulars.

 

[munstermuffin]

My point being made by an impartial voice. (Ulster fan)

Tadhg Beirne aside I can think of few enough without a qualification/ limited success.

Conway is another who became an Ireland starter but he was on the cusp of his Leinster breakthrough anyway. I reckon if he could look at the move with zero emotion and consideration of what the move brought him outside of rugby he'd acknowledge that he'd have probably been better off staying.

Loughman, Carbery, Cooney, any one else I can think of that made it as starters in their new province didn't become Ireland or regulars.

Not going to hammer Deegan on this. There is more to life than rugby and don't know the guy personally.
Maybe he has other areas that require or he wants to stay in Dublin.

From outside it looks like he is down the pecking order and will be another Rhys Ruddock. (Not a terrible thing). But just for a guy who had so much potential he is just a gap filler at the moment.
Like regards Irish rugby it is a fail I think as if Deegan does go to Ulster.
He starts and improves them so improves Irish Province.
He becomes another serious contender for Irish teams/camps.

I'd disagree on Conway as he was excellent for us and believe he suited our plan very well.
Loughman, Cooney and few others it is hard to compare as they weren't wanted in Leinster for example LHP was always a competitive spot.

But regardless it a case of either way can be looked at funny. The difference here is Deegan has dropped much further down the pecking order.
Like Baird, Doris, Van Der Flier, Connors, Penney, Conan all ahead by a bit I feel and then you have others like Culhane coming behind.

 

[munstermuffin]

Ed Byrne to Cardiff confirmed. Was always likely to be cut but a good club man.

 

[irisht]

happy he got his 100 caps.. but he was the obvious one to move on.

 

[munstermuffin]

Interesting development. In UL this evening. Just crossed one person in our recruitment and Milne seems to be back on the shop window.
Not sure if this means we are going to make a pitch but 1 or 2 lads higher up who aren't usually here late are here.
I predict Healy and himself will sign though.
Healy as the THP reserve and Milne as to be honest with Healy out of the LHP window and I'd expect out of Irish window then it argubally his best chance of Irish spot like Sheehan Kelliher way

 

[irisht]

he had a rough few weeks in SA.

 

[Amiga500]

My point being made by an impartial voice. (Ulster fan)

Tadhg Beirne aside I can think of few enough without a qualification/ limited success.

Conway is another who became an Ireland starter but he was on the cusp of his Leinster breakthrough anyway. I reckon if he could look at the move with zero emotion and consideration of what the move brought him outside of rugby he'd acknowledge that he'd have probably been better off staying.

Loughman, Carbery, Cooney, any one else I can think of that made it as starters in their new province didn't become Ireland or regulars.

To be fair to using Cooney as an example, it was utterly mystifying why probably the form scrum-half in Europe for a significant period of time couldn't even get a look-in with the Irish squad with the incumbent playing like a drain.

I dunno was there friction between player and at least one member of Irish coaching staff or what it was, but something didn't fit.

 

[munstermuffin]

To be fair to using Cooney as an example, it was utterly mystifying why probably the form scrum-half in Europe for a significant period of time couldn't even get a look-in with the Irish squad with the incumbent playing like a drain.

I dunno was there friction between player and at least one member of Irish coaching staff or what it was, but something didn't fit.

Was it not friction with a more influential player???

Nut some cases do work and some don't like the "Jack McGrath failure" I disagree with. McGrath went to Ulster goosed from the Lions tour as his hips later proved. So it didn't work out as his body was effected at this stage.
I thought Jordi Murphy had a great reemergence to Irish squads when he first went up.
Others like Conway to Munster worked too in my eyes as once Andy got clear of injury he excelled. Some may say Joey Carbery failed but again injury played a part.
That is the other thing. I will use Max Deegan as an example. And this is from my physical therapy side.
He plays at the moment what 5-10 games and the majority are against poor opposition. If he does this for few seasons his body has distanced himself from the level of top top rugby consistently. Then if he moved to Ulster or anywhere and was expected to play like a regular player and consistently in big games then your body may not be able.
Again it doesn't happen everyone but I do think it is more often than not.

That is the fine balance players have to consider too. So again using Deegan as just an example. He may be happy getting a 5/10 contract at Leinster for 4 or 5 years than going abroad or elsewhere for larger money and only lasting 2 or 3 years.

And I suppose now he has backed himself only history will tell if it was a good or bad idea backing himself.
Like if he does fail to move up the pecking order and doesn't get renewed he may get a lower contract at another province ice or abroad bit will be seen as a wasted talent. Equally if he does start breaking in to Irish squads and Leinster squads then it will be a success but in the next 2 to 3 years I can't see Conan or Doris dropping off and Baird is only getting started as well as Connors viewed as able to play 6 too.
And I know people say international rest periods will kick in but there is very little games now that will be effected especially for some fringe guys and well if that is all guys settle for then that reverts to a poor approach.

But Leinster are real winners as now it means Deegan has to go all in and they get a player with point to prove

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Deegan played 12 games (11 starts) this year so far. Including against Munster, Stormers, Glasgow, Benetton and the Sharks…. Will likely get 3-5 more in must win games. He's a champions cup quality player and is being kept for that reason.

I don't think Cooney ever got away with his slow pass at international level. Murray was obviously slower at the time but credit in the bank, athletic profile and kicking has kept him in squads.

 

[Groundhog]

Was the Cooney rumor that him and Sexton clashed?

Loughman is definitely not a good example of a guy who made a wrong choice. I don't think he had a contract on the table with Leinster? He got a 3 month development contract from us, and is on the fringe of international squads now. Has probably hit his ceiling ability wise as a very decent club player.

Cooney was also not rated until he got to Ulster. Had to go to Connacht to get a game with Boss and Reddan. I think he was hugely unlucky with caps, albeit that debate went on a few years too long.

Carbery had what 3/4 injuries requiring surgery in his years with Munster? It's no wonder he ever hit his peak. Huge shame, but that's rugby!

Deegan, it's probably a failure of the Nucifora system they can't convince him to move, but it's not like they can promise him caps or more money, so there's really no leverage there.

 

[munstermuffin]

Deegan played 12 games (11 starts) this year so far. Including against Munster, Stormers, Glasgow, Benetton and the Sharks…. Will likely get 3-5 more in must win games. He's a champions cup quality player and is being kept for that reason.

I don't think Cooney ever got away with his slow pass at international level. Murray was obviously slower at the time but credit in the bank, athletic profile and kicking has kept him in squads.

This isn't doubting Deegan's ability more the utilitisation of it.
I'm just pointing out facts here.
He has 12 appearances but not in meaningful games. Take Munster game. That was a rotated side. Again not a meaningful must win game.
Will he get 3 to 5 more games. I don't know. But Leinster don't have must win games. The game against Ospreys Friday is not an all out game. Yes they need to win but it is rotational team that will have enough at home vs a poor Ospreys team.
The games vs Ulster and Connacht will be mixed too as they come each side of Toulouse game.
Leinster have used a 6/2 split this year and Deegan was not even near consideration for that.
On Saturday he wasn't part of the extended squad to warm up even pre game.
Even using "must win games" I'd use lightly. Like the URC semi last year he played and while it was a "must win" in terms of knockout it wasn't to Leinster as they put all eggs in European game. Where Deegan played but it isn't meaningful.
As you say Deegan has 12 appearances. But even those games alot were at 6 early in season where he wasn't effective as he is at 8.
But equally
Connors has 11 and played in Europe. And seen as able to do job at 6 as well as 7.
Scott Penny has played more and was out warming up on Saturday.
Ryan Baird is now a 6 and has leapfrogged so far ahead here. Also has more games for Leinster despite being away. If he is not starting with Ireland and in 23 (it either him or Conan at times) then he plays in 6Nations down weeks. POM being gone may alter that of course.
Conan has been used at 6nas well as Doris and are obviously further ahead.
Of games played this year Rhys Ruddock has played in 7 of those games also so that states also type of teams Leinster were fielding. Not a hammering on Rhys either but he is near end and is more the leader of the reserves.

This isn't a young guy we are talking about either. And I have no issues with him staying. It is more a case of can you see Deegan breaking in to an Iriah squad in the next 18 Months?
Or a Leinster first team squad in that time?
Is he a good player. On evidence of performances overall vs lesser teams this year. Yes. And he was good when played in Europe but that is the past.
As I said I can't say will it workout or not. The proof will be in the pudding of does he break in to first team squads and be a more prominent player. And if it doesn't work out then he will go down as a failed utilisation of talent from U20 prospect similar to JJ Hanrahan and few others.
As you sat Deegan is a Champions Cup quality player. The challenge will now be will he get to prove he is over next 2 years as if he hits 30 it unlikely.

My point is more that it does hang questions over Deegan's mentality.
Not necessarily bad as I don't know.
Does he back himself to seriously challenge for a spot?
Or is he happy in big games not even warming the bench but a seat in the stand?
Which is the question we can't answer the former is good and latter is bad obviously.
I'm not even saying staying is bad more it a time will tell.

Also as a complete off the topic but seems true from what I have heard all provinces will not be permitted to signing NIQ frontrow players for the next few years and 9 and 10 will be added to the list also. Ulster may get dispensation for a 10 next season but these are David Humphreys main areas to target it seems for Irish team.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

We have finally agreed on something in this weird argument. In your words Munster = poor opposition.

The rest is just bizarre. If he makes Leinster starting 23s he'll make Ireland squads if he goes to another province he'd have to do way more working with less. His reason to stay is obvious and not criticisable.

Was the Cooney rumor that him and Sexton clashed?

Loughman is definitely not a good example of a guy who made a wrong choice. I don't think he had a contract on the table with Leinster? He got a 3 month development contract from us, and is on the fringe of international squads now. Has probably hit his ceiling ability wise as a very decent club player.

Cooney was also not rated until he got to Ulster. Had to go to Connacht to get a game with Boss and Reddan. I think he was hugely unlucky with caps, albeit that debate went on a few years too long.

Carbery had what 3/4 injuries requiring surgery in his years with Munster? It's no wonder he ever hit his peak. Huge shame, but that's rugby!

Deegan, it's probably a failure of the Nucifora system they can't convince him to move, but it's not like they can promise him caps or more money, so there's really no leverage there.

Wasn't my argument more that leaving Leinster =\= becoming an Ireland first 23 or even squad player far more often than it does.

 

[irisht]

3 more signing today presumably... dont really expect any more signings from the academy

Frawley, Harry, Milne, Larmour some notable players who signed in 2022 and presumably are out of contract.

 

[munstermuffin]

We have finally agreed on something in this weird argument. In your words Munster = poor opposition.

The rest is just bizarre. If he makes Leinster starting 23s he'll make Ireland squads if he goes to another province he'd have to do way more working with less. His reason to stay is obvious and not criticisable.



Wasn't my argument more that leaving Leinster =\= becoming an Ireland first 23 or even squad player far more often than it does.

Not that Munster is a poor opposition. But more Leinster viewed it as a game to put out 2nd or 3rd choice players.

On the 2nd part I am agreeing. If he makes a Leinster 23 then his pathway to Ireland is much clearer.
However having failed to make it in 7 years as a regular.
It is more a Deegan argument and I don't have the answer.
Stay and don't break in to the main 23 over next 2 years (9 years in total) then it is a waste of talent and unfulfilled potential.
Make it and he backed himself and won.

On the "goes to another province he'd have to do way more working with less" I suppose highlights again my mentality point in does he want to make things happen and be a leader of an Ulster pack in big games or have an armchair ride up in stands saying he is a Leinster squad player.
Time will tell all this and I am not criticizing him as he can still make it but effectively it is black and white at moment.
He isn't next to near a 23 for Leinster's big games and has not fulfilled his promise. Let's not forget he has been bypassed fairly handy at 8 by Doris and 6 by Baird. And if we say he is waiting for Conan to retire after the next RWC he will be gone 31 himself and will be overtaken by a younger guy you feel from the Leinster side of things.

On the argument of lads leaving Leinster and not getting further Irish recognition etc.
When they stayed it hasn't been much better like.
And most these guys we talk about are younger guys. Say Paddy McCarthy for example.
If he was moved to Munster. He may play more now but is still developing so can get him staying. But a Deegan where you are in the prime of your career is a different story.
Michael Milne is the one I mentioned yesterday he is 25 but again that is very young for prop terms in 1 sense.

Again I don't have the answer. For Ireland I would love to see Deegan succeed and Ireland have another option. And fair play to him as I said if he backs himself and makes it.
But that is the gamble. If he doesn't and just as I said hangs in the background playing in the games where Leinster rotate and rest their main players ahead of big European or Knockout games. And Deegan doesn't even take the field then it is a loss to Ireland in terms of an IQ player with potential wasted and equally shows Ireland mismanaged it and Leinster also in they hoarded the guy. But also the player as he was happy to accept his status as a squad filler.

 

[munstermuffin]

3 more signing today presumably... dont really expect any more signings from the academy

Frawley, Harry, Milne, Larmour some notable players who signed in 2022 and presumably are out of contract.

I'd expect all 4 over time regardless.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Not that Munster is a poor opposition. But more Leinster viewed it as a game to put out 2nd or 3rd choice players.

On the 2nd part I am agreeing. If he makes a Leinster 23 then his pathway to Ireland is much clearer.
However having failed to make it in 7 years as a regular.
It is more a Deegan argument and I don't have the answer.
Stay and don't break in to the main 23 over next 2 years (9 years in total) then it is a waste of talent and unfulfilled potential.
Make it and he backed himself and won.

On the "goes to another province he'd have to do way more working with less" I suppose highlights again my mentality point in does he want to make things happen and be a leader of an Ulster pack in big games or have an armchair ride up in stands saying he is a Leinster squad player.
Time will tell all this and I am not criticizing him as he can still make it but effectively it is black and white at moment.
He isn't next to near a 23 for Leinster's big games and has not fulfilled his promise. Let's not forget he has been bypassed fairly handy at 8 by Doris and 6 by Baird. And if we say he is waiting for Conan to retire after the next RWC he will be gone 31 himself and will be overtaken by a younger guy you feel from the Leinster side of things.

On the argument of lads leaving Leinster and not getting further Irish recognition etc.
When they stayed it hasn't been much better like.
And most these guys we talk about are younger guys. Say Paddy McCarthy for example.
If he was moved to Munster. He may play more now but is still developing so can get him staying. But a Deegan where you are in the prime of your career is a different story.
Michael Milne is the one I mentioned yesterday he is 25 but again that is very young for prop terms in 1 sense.

Again I don't have the answer. For Ireland I would love to see Deegan succeed and Ireland have another option. And fair play to him as I said if he backs himself and makes it.
But that is the gamble. If he doesn't and just as I said hangs in the background playing in the games where Leinster rotate and rest their main players ahead of big European or Knockout games. And Deegan doesn't even take the field then it is a loss to Ireland in terms of an IQ player with potential wasted and equally shows Ireland mismanaged it and Leinster also in they hoarded the guy. But also the player as he was happy to accept his status as a squad filler.

You're making up stuff though which doesn't help your point. He was a 23 player at worst from 18/19 - 2021. Had broken into the Ireland team in 2020 before Covid. Covid and injuries opened the door for Doris and Baird.

 

[munstermuffin]

You're making up stuff though which doesn't help your point. He was a 23 player at worst from 18/19 - 2021. Had broken into the Ireland team in 2020 before Covid. Covid and injuries opened the door for Doris and Baird.

Yes but are we in 2021 or now?
Not making any thing up. They are the facts.
Injuries happen.
At present Deegan is well down the pecking order. That is a fact.
At present he is nowhere near an Irish camp. That is a fact.
Doris and Baird may have benefited from injures and covid but kicked on in a much stronger way. Again that is a fact.
Deegan you say was a 23 player. He was never ever a starter so still 1 or 2 seasons out of 9 as just a 23 player at best is still a poor return.

Don't see why it such a bad thing. They are facts. Better players in front like I don't see how anything I said is even debatable. It kind of clear. He hasn't ever cemented a spot in 23. Be it because of injury or covid or whatever. He hasn't.
In 2019 he had Fardy, O'Brien, Conan and Ruddock clearly ahead of him, 2020 Doris was starting to arrive too and Connors. And well after that is as it is.

It not a dig at Deegan, as I said I hope he does kick on but at the moment he has massively failed on his potential.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I mistakenly said Osborne had won more European games than Munster since 2022 recently (has has now) and you rinsed me for it. So here we go:

He plays at the moment what 5-10 games

Not true

and the majority are against poor opposition.

Not true

Not that Munster is a poor opposition. But more Leinster viewed it as a game to put out 2nd or 3rd choice players.

Leinster: Hugo Keenan; Jordan Larmour, Garry Ringrose (capt), Ciará Frawley, Rob Russell; Harry Byrne, Jamison Gibson-Park; Andrew Porter, Rónan Kelleher, Michael Ala'alatoa; Ross Molony, Joe McCarthy; Max Deegan, Scott Penny, Jack Conan.

Not true

However having failed to make it in 7 years as a regular.

And again not true.