The Forbidden Fruits of Louis Rees-Zammit ; )

[MikeTheNative]

He's not eligible to play for Wales*, so sure, why not


*he played in the u20s Six Nations cause there's no criteria beyond "live there", but moved back to England before completing senior level criteria so didn't play in the junior world cup

If he stayed him would be eligible by now. Trying to think the England players than have done the 'opposite', Academy in Wales then go back to England. Underhill was in Gloucester academy till he was 18 then switched when he went to uni in Cardifff. Ben Morgan got his breakthrough at the Scarlets, not sure how he ended up there though.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Have had a quick click around and it looks like Morgan bypassed the academy systems - played for his local club, then went to Cinderford, then Merthyr, trial at Cardiff Blues and then offered a deal at Scarlets. Must have been tearing it up/put together a hell of a highlights reel to get a pro-contract from amateur (though I guess it's the same with Dombrandt, who only started playing at Uni and went straight from Uni into a pro contract).

 

[bushytop]

Sorry bad wording by me, I just meant this is affecting of other sides too. It's interesting that you mention academy sides because as they aren't centrally controlled (unlike other UK countries) they pick players that are best for them not for England. This gets them funding the development of the likes of LRZ, Moriarty, Tommy Reffell etc. who's focus is only to play at senior level for Wales. On the other hand they have produced the likes of Harry Randall and Callum Sheedy who probably (I'm guessing) if they stayed in Wales would have represented Wales as they grew up there.

Yeah we briefly discussed this point previously and it's interesting to see the English perspective on it. Us Welsh obviously see it as our talented youth are being 'spirited' away over the Severn Bridge with grand promises of education and fortune. We worry how it affects our regions (having to make do with second choice pickings etc) and how our talented youth over the border maybe be seduced by the RFU's deep pockets.

The English on the other hand see it as a wasted spot at an academy that could be used for a promising English youngster... and I think that LRZ has just brought this into the limelight. Something that will be highlighted more and more with Costelow, Reffell and Lloyd (as well as a consistent stream of talent that is still making the same departure from Wales).

I think both views are right and ideally there would be just as good opportunities within Wales to stop this happening and then both parties would have less to feel aggrieved by. And while this should be the WRU's primary concern right now, it doesn't look like changing anytime soon.

The acquisition of talents refined elsewhere does happen a lot in this sport though and all tier one sides have prospered and failed by it. It's easy to pick on Wales right now due to the three new boys from England, as well as people liking to point out George North, Jonathan Davies et al were also born in England (I think there is a big difference between the latest guys and the old guard though). But every team (except Argentina and to a slightly less extent South Africa) has these examples. The reason I started this thread is that I think if England had of tempted LRZ, it would have been the next level of 'bolstering the ranks'.

 

[MikeTheNative]

To be fair, despite not qualifying for Wales at the time there was similar talk around Underhill when he was tearing it up for the Ospreys.

 

[bushytop]

To be fair, despite not qualifying for Wales at the time there was similar talk around Underhill when he was tearing it up for the Ospreys.

Yeah I've mentioned this elsewhere in the thread... that is the one example that is the equivalent of LRZ ie. a super talented kid who's own nation is interested and they themselves are a tier one nation who is highly competitive (& it didn't happen, he's plying his trade very successfully for his actual country). All other examples that I can see are the same old 'own nation are not interested' or 'own nation are not competitive'.

Another example which is 'close' but not the same is the Vunipola's. Different because they weren't actually born in Wales... though moved here real young and went through our systems. Same as, well Wales were more than interested and we are a competitive tier one nation but their time in the country obviously didn't leave enough of a mark on them and it is what it is.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

The Vunipolas Welshness is so overplayed - they played primary school rugby there and left years before the academy structures even kick in.

They moved there when Billy was 6 and Mako was 7, moved to England when Billy started secondary school (so 11?).

 

[bushytop]

The Vunipolas Welshness is so overplayed - they played primary school rugby there and left years before the academy structures even kick in.

I think it's more to do with the fact that we see how good they are and think, dayum how did we let not one but two get away!

 

[MikeTheNative]

The Vunipolas Welshness is so overplayed - they played primary school rugby there and left years before the academy structures even kick in.

They moved to England sometime during Secondary school i believe. I agree, you definitely can't call them more Welsh than English.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

They moved to England sometime during Secondary school i believe.

I might be wrong but I was under the impression that their Mom got a job in/lived part time in England (she is/was a...preacher? vicar? whatever the terminology) - the rest of the family followed once Billy finished primary school (think Mako had done two years of secondary school in Wales when they left).

 

[bushytop]

I might be wrong but I was under the impression that their Mom got a job in/lived part time in England (she is/was a...preacher? vicar? whatever the terminology) - the rest of the family followed once Billy finished primary school (think Mako had done two years of secondary school in Wales when they left).

You poached their mother too! That's it, new thread.

 

[MikeTheNative]

I might be wrong but I was under the impression that their Mom got a job in/lived part time in England (she is/was a...preacher? vicar? whatever the terminology) - the rest of the family followed once Billy finished primary school (think Mako had done two years of secondary school in Wales when they left).

You could be right, I'm probably more wrong lol, still it's splitting hairs really.

 

[Scotty]

Ok so stupid question maybe(probably) but how are gran parents judged to be Welsh or English ect.

If your great grandparents were both welsh but the granparent was born and rasied in England. Does that mean a player under the grandparent rule could play for Wales or England regardless of parents or his place of birth because of 1 grandparent?.

 

[bushytop]

Ok so stupid question maybe(probably) but how are gran parents judged to be Welsh or English ect.

If your great grandparents were both welsh but the granparent was born and rasied in England. Does that mean a player under the grandparent rule could play for Wales or England regardless of parents or his place of birth because of 1 grandparent?.

I assume it's through birth and/or residency but who knows... anyway hands off our Grans!

#preservewelshgranssanctity

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

If he stayed him would be eligible by now. Trying to think the England players than have done the 'opposite', Academy in Wales then go back to England. Underhill was in Gloucester academy till he was 18 then switched when he went to uni in Cardifff. Ben Morgan got his breakthrough at the Scarlets, not sure how he ended up there though.

Swansea*

#UppaSwans

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I assume it's through birth and/or residency but who knows... anyway hands off our Grans!

#preservewelshgranssanctity

With the greatest of pleasure, Bushy. I'm not sure a sample size of one is fair, but nonetheless my one encounter has permanently scarred me.

Scene: South stand, Twickenham.

Date: 26th September 2015

Occasion: Eng vs Wal RWC Group A.

As if the whole thing wasn't distressing enough the misery was compounded by the seat behind me being occupied by a beer swilling, beer spilling, gobby, gloating, overweight, back prodding, finger jabbing Welsh woman of a certain vintage.

Not a day I look back on fondly.

 

[bushytop]

With the greatest of pleasure, Bushy. I'm not sure a sample size of one is fair, but nonetheless my one encounter has permanently scarred me.

Scene: South stand, Twickenham.

Date: 26th September 2015

Occasion: Eng vs Wal RWC Group A.

As if the whole thing wasn't distressing enough the misery was compounded by the seat behind me being occupied by a beer swilling, beer spilling, gobby, gloating, overweight, back prodding, finger jabbing Welsh woman of a certain vintage.

Not a day I look back on fondly.

... & then you ****ed her right? We've already got dibs on the offspring's offspring .

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

The RFU get proper ****** in this regard, even taking eligibility questions completely out of the equation, the amount of English academy products playing for other countries is increasing every year

I'm more or less certain its better having these lads at underage rather than not regardless if they play for England or not. They're a higher standard than next off the bus and it only helps the development of those around them. You see it in Ireland and Wales a bit where extremely talented age groups can bring guys not doing much underage up to the level (Van der Flier was stuck behind Dan Leavy for years despite being a year older) and mediocre age groups stunting development (Jack Kelly, current 7s player, hyped t'****, did nothing after a year in a terrible 20s side until he got picked up by the 7s).

Anyway Test Lion Ben Te'o was totally developed by us, fair trade for two benchwarmers!

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

... & then you ****ed her right? We've already got dibs on the offspring's offspring .

Urgh. It would have taken more than the regulation 27 pints of Brains to have found beer goggles strong enough. I survived, grumpy but unsullied.

 

[bushytop]

Urgh. It would have taken more than the regulation 27 pints of Brains to have found beer goggles strong enough. I survived, grumpy but unsullied.

 

[bushytop]

So it looks like (for at least the Blues in any case) something is being done to address the talent drain across the Severn. It's certainly not ideal but quite how we would get to 'ideal' is probably impossible given the lack of money within Wales... buts a start (I guess).

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/welsh-rugbys-game-changing-move-17604413