The Forbidden Fruits of Louis Rees-Zammit ; )

[Leinster Fan]

Feel a bit sorry for this kid in all honesty (not really about anything I this thread). Guy is still a teenager and jus6 into pro rugby and already people are arguing all over the media and internet about him playing. The expectation is going to be unreal when he does play for Wales

 

[bushytop]

Feel a bit sorry for this kid in all honesty (not really about anything I this thread). Guy is still a teenager and jus6 into pro rugby and already people are arguing all over the media and internet about him playing. The expectation is going to be unreal when he does play for Wales

That's what you get when you score 9 (I think) tries in your first 9 games and youre Welsh but you don't play in Wales... and your surnames not Jones, Williams or Evans I guess .

 

[Scotty]

On all this with LRZ but more so the English players going to Wales. I have long thought way before i ever heard LRZs name that the grandparent rule should be tied to the residency rule meaning say residency is 5 years then your must have 2.5 years residency or could even do 1 year. Or something along them lines meaning if a player wants to play for Wales then they must move their to be picked.

 

[bushytop]

On all this with LRZ but more so the English players going to Wales. I have long thought way before i ever heard LRZs name that the grandparent rule should be tied to the residency rule meaning say residency is 5 years then your must have 2.5 years residency or could even do 1 year. Or something along them lines meaning if a player wants to play for Wales then they must move their to be picked.

There is no doubt that the rules around eligibility are a little 'shady'... I read that Rowlands has a Welsh father though. Not saying it's any 'better' really but just so we're all clear.

Hopefully the 5 year residency should make a difference but I don't think there is a 'perfect' solution (well Argentinians probably have one but you know what I mean).

 

[Scotty]

There is no doubt that the rules around eligibility are a little 'shady'... I read that Rowlands has a Welsh father though. Not saying it's any 'better' really but just so we're all clear.

Hopefully the 5 year residency should make a difference but I don't think there is a 'perfect' solution (well Argentinians probably have one but you know what I mean).

No if he has a Welsh father he is half Welsh then fine as he likely has no control over where he is brought up yet can choose but 1 grandparent that qualifies for a country then you should have to show some will to play for that country and in that country

 

[bushytop]

No if he has a Welsh father he is half Welsh then fine as he likely has no control over where he is brought up yet can choose but 1 grandparent that qualifies for a country then you should have to show some will to play for that country and in that country

I'm inclined to agree that 'ideally' (something we rarely if ever get in this world) a single grand parent (probably even two) shouldn't be enough to qualify for a country. My mention of 'not saying Rowlands having a Welsh father is any better' is more to do with the fact that... although I don't know the bloke I feel pretty confident in saying that he has always considered himself English and if both countries Unions were making overtures there is no doubt in my mind he would want to play for England (& rightly so too). So while having a Welsh father is 'better' than simply having a Welsh Granny (or whatever) the fact that the guy considers himself English (regardless of Welsh Father) means that (to me at least) it's of little consequence. Whether it's a granny or a Dad, it's still an Englishman playing for Wales. The only reason I pointed out he has a Welsh Dad is due to everyone just saying that all three of the 'surprising' call ups merely had a Welsh gran, when in reality only one does (Tomkins). The other two have 'better' (some would say) credentials for repping Wales. Rowlands has a Welsh Dad and John lived in Wales for all his youth, attending all of his schooling in Wales as well as repping Wales at all junior levels (out of the three, I'm perfectly fine with WGJ's eligibility btw).

 

[Scotty]

I'm inclined to agree that 'ideally' (something we rarely if ever get in this world) a single grand parent (probably even two) shouldn't be enough to qualify for a country. My mention of 'not saying Rowlands having a Welsh father is any better' is more to do with the fact that... although I don't know the bloke I feel pretty confident in saying that he has always considered himself English and if both countries Unions were making overtures there is no doubt in my mind he would want to play for England (& rightly so too). So while having a Welsh father is 'better' than simply having a Welsh Granny (or whatever) the fact that the guy considers himself English (regardless of Welsh Father) means that (to me at least) it's of little consequence. Whether it's a granny or a Dad, it's still an Englishman playing for Wales. The only reason I pointed out he has a Welsh Dad is due to everyone just saying that all three of the 'surprising' call ups merely had a Welsh gran, when in reality only one does (Tomkins). The other two have 'better' (some would say) credentials for repping Wales. Rowlands has a Welsh Dad and John lived in Wales for all his youth, attending all of his schooling in Wales as well as repping Wales at all junior levels (out of the three, I'm perfectly fine with WGJ's eligibility btw).

Oh all 3 i think would consider themselves English, just as LRZ considered himself Welsh. And agree with your point.

But mine was more of a general policy that i believe should be implemented. Ive just never liked the grandparent rule.

 

[bushytop]

Oh all 3 i think would consider themselves English, just as LRZ considered himself Welsh. And agree with your point.

But mine was more of a general policy that i believe should be implemented. Ive just never liked the grandparent rule.

Not sure about WGJ... I could be wrong. Tomkins and Rowlands though... definitely consider themselves English.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Nationality is very nuanced but we talk about a parent or grandparent being Welsh or English or whatever in a very black and white way. So what actually qualifies a (grand)parent to be labelled as a particular nationality? One of country of birth, residency or being a citizen / passport holder maybe? Genuinely don't know.

 

[Which Tyler]

The trouble is - where someone "feels" that they come from, or has passion about; isn't particularly related to where they, or their imediate family were born. This is especially the case in places with fluid borders, like England:Scotland, England:Wales, or, more recently, the Shengen area Europeans.

Take all those 8th generation Americans who "feel" Irish.
Or take one of the lads I play with who's the only Englishman in his house at the moment, despite the fact that his Welsh wife was born in England, and all 3 kids were born in England. Wife and 1 child are Welsh during the 6N, whilst the other 2 kids are both Irish - due to his grandfather who has instilled the kids with their Irish heritage. The grandparents are 1 Scot, 1 Irish and 2 English; he's not aware of anyone having been born in Wales going back 3 generations - but 2 of them "feel" Welsh, because Mum went to secondary school in Wales.

I would strongly suspect that pretty much all British posters (certainly all who live near a national border) here knows a similar family (maybe not quite so split, or they may not know that the family is like that) where the kids, or even the parents "feel" that they're from a country they weren't born in. That proud Welshman who moves to London for work, and settles down, but raises his kids Welsh - who in turn do the same with generation 2, or even 3.

Consequently, I have no problem with the grandparent rule - but I DO like the suggestion that it should be to take time off the residency qualification; which is soon to be 5 years (rightly) - make it 1 with a grandparent, whilst 2 grandparents = 1 parent. Setting a hard and fast rule on where someone is allowed to "fel" that they come from is a fool's errand. Of course, it should also be about more than that - for example, which country's rugby system produced the talent?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

, which country's rugby system produced the talent?

The RFU get proper ****** in this regard, even taking eligibility questions completely out of the equation, the amount of English academy products playing for other countries is increasing every year

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

The RFU get proper ****** in this regard, even taking eligibility questions completely out of the equation, the amount of English academy products playing for other countries is increasing every year

Noticed Addison and Burns in the Irish squad.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Noticed Addison and Burns in the Irish squad.

Italy have 3(?), think Wales have 6, Scotland have 4 (though that number goes up if you count private school/university in England, as there's a few who skipped the academy step and went straight to pro - not sure if their setups receive any funding from the RFU though?)

Like I said - I'm not questioning them playing for those countries, just that it's a bit lame that we put so much into their rugby education only to then have that funding/time/effort go to a direct competitor.

 

[Scotty]

Noticed Addison and Burns in the Irish squad.

Tbh i dont have an issue with that at all, they were eligible and chose Ireland(regardless of if they wanted england and wasnt going to get it) so they went to play for an irish team.

We have by far the biggest player pool to choose from and cross that with sharing borders with scotland wales and close to ireland means we will always have players crossing between if they arnt getting picked for England or they feel they want to represent their own country even though they were raised in England. I just want players that want to play for a country to have to spend time in that country first. Tie in grandparent rule to reduce the residency rule

 

[MikeTheNative]

Italy have 3(?), think Wales have 6, Scotland have 4 (though that number goes up if you count private school/university in England, as there's a few who skipped the academy step and went straight to pro - not sure if their setups receive any funding from the RFU though?)

Like I said - I'm not questioning them playing for those countries, just that it's a bit lame that we put so much into their rugby education only to then have that funding/time/effort go to a direct competitor.

I'm sure NZ and South Africa feel the same way. I don't think England can make the claim they are affected more than anyone else, especially since they have picked players that have come from other countries youth set ups. Sheilds, Hienz, Teo, Hughes, etc.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I'm sure NZ and South Africa feel the same way. I don't think England can make the claim they are affected more than anyone else, especially since they have picked players that have come from other countries youth set ups. Sheilds, Hienz, Teo, Hughes, etc.

Ah yes, NZ and South Africa, those famous Six Nations sides.
All I'm saying is it sucks we've funded 13+ players for direct competitors, especially when the RFU/academy systems are struggling for cash, I'm not saying we're the most hard done by side in the world or that everyone should feel sorry for us or whatever you want me to be saying.

Sheilds, Hienz, Teo, Hughes, etc.

I wanted exactly zero of those players to play for England, though.

 

[MikeTheNative]

Ah yes, NZ and South Africa, those famous Six Nations sides.
All I'm saying is it sucks we've funded 13+ players for direct competitors, especially when the RFU/academy systems are struggling for cash, I'm not saying we're the most hard done by side in the world or that everyone should feel sorry for us or whatever you want me to be saying.




I wanted exactly zero of those players to play for England, though.

Sorry bad wording by me, I just meant this is affecting of other sides too. It's interesting that you mention academy sides because as they aren't centrally controlled (unlike other UK countries) they pick players that are best for them not for England. This gets them funding the development of the likes of LRZ, Moriarty, Tommy Reffell etc. who's focus is only to play at senior level for Wales. On the other hand they have produced the likes of Harry Randall and Callum Sheedy who probably (I'm guessing) if they stayed in Wales would have represented Wales as they grew up there.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Sorry bad wording by me, I just meant this is affecting of other sides too. It's interesting that you mention academy sides because as they aren't centrally controlled (unlike other UK countries) they pick players that are best for them not for England. This gets them funding the development of the likes of LRZ, Moriarty, Tommy Reffell etc. who's focus is only to play at senior level for Wales. On the other hand they have produced the likes of Harry Randall and Callum Sheedy who probably (I'm guessing) if they stayed in Wales would have represented Wales as they grew up there.

Aye, the only way to really combat it would be to make kids decide at 15/16 who they want to play for internationally down the line - which obviously is ludicrous in the case of someone like Ross Moriarty (as it would mean he'd have to only play school rugby while at Hartpury, or commute to Wales to play for an academy there).

It was an observation rather than a serious quibble - it's gonna happen regardless, I'm just noticing more and more names doing it (you never used to see English players playing for Italy, for example).

 

[MikeTheNative]

I will make a deal, if Wales give Rowlands back can we have Dombrandt in return?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I will make a deal, if Wales give Rowlands back can we have Dombrandt in return?

He's not eligible to play for Wales*, so sure, why not


*he played in the u20s Six Nations cause there's no criteria beyond "live there", but moved back to England before completing senior level criteria so didn't play in the junior world cup