The Continuity philosofy that harmed Argentina

[Feicarsinn]

Argentina is a team that less than 3 nations, and that having players of lesser quality, the mere fact of having a good defense against these powerful teams is a good thing.

You received 60 points last year in Hamilton, do you remember?



So I'm not sure if Ireland could do better than Argentina in The Rugby Championship

Cheers

Okay, I'd ask that you try and not turn this into a dick swinging contest. It serves no purpose but to undermine your argument.

I made the comparison between Ireland and Argentina because historically (over the past 20 years or so) they've been are roughly a similar standard. Your point was that Argentina should be happy with the results they've achieved under Phelan and therefore the calls to replace him are unwarranted. I said that were Ireland to achieve similar results I'd be unimpressed with the head coach.

As I've said I'm aware of the fact that we got tanked by New Zealand. If anything that furthers my point. That result was pretty much the nail in the coffin for Kidney. He would have been sacked there and then if the IRFU could have afforded it and there wasn't a single person in the country who wanted to keep him on (probably.) The fact that people like yourself still aren't calling for Phelan's head after a 60 point loss to South Africa shows that there's a lack ambition withing Argentine rugby. No tier one nation should ever accept a loss like that, regardless of the circumstances.

 

[big ginger 8]

But I already told you. Argentina didn't have their best forwards in the last year against Boks last game. How many important players lost before you get 60 points?

Paul O'Connell, Stephen Ferris, Jamie Heaslip, Tommy Bowe, Gordon D'arcy and Luke Fitzgerald off the top of my head all player who have had the words world class attched to their name a some stage of their career.

And was still I and essentially all Irish fans were very ****** off.

 

[Aspry]

We should get a new coach, preferably someone from NZ just like everyone else.

 

[welshglory]

Argentina have never had a good attacking game. Having a new coach isn't going to suddenly change that.

The main problem is depth though imo.

 

[psychic duck]

Argentina have never had a good attacking game. Having a new coach isn't going to suddenly change that.

The main problem is depth though imo.

Just because a side is known for a style of play doesn't mean they should have stick to the status quo gameplan for eternity. In that case Wales might as well ditch Gatland.

It's about the game plan being suited to the personnel. It is clear that Argentina's strengths are becoming increasingly out wide as opposed to up front, and they should bring in a coach to gear the game more towards their strength of a more potent and talented back three.

 

[Jaguares]

Just because a side is known for a style of play doesn't mean they should have stick to the status quo gameplan for eternity. In that case Wales might as well ditch Gatland.

It's about the game plan being suited to the personnel. It is clear that Argentina's strengths are becoming increasingly out wide as opposed to up front, and they should bring in a coach to gear the game more towards their strength of a more potent and talented back three.

Robbie Deans is someone who can revolutionize the Argentine attack system. But there is a problem Robbie, he's very risky. I don't know if the Argentine public is willing to take that risk.

For the plan of attack of Robbie can be done successfully by Pumas, first they will suffer several bulky results before that. You can't just go from having no offensive to have a good offense, the overnight, it will take a long time.

Cheers

 

[psychic duck]

Robbie Deans is someone who can revolutionize the Argentine attack system. But there is a problem Robbie, he's very risky. I don't know if the Argentine public is willing to take that risk.

For the plan of attack of Robbie can be done successfully by Pumas, first they will suffer several bulky results before that. You can't just go from having no offensive to have a good offense, the overnight, it will take a long time.

Cheers

Why an earth not if the players are there? And they are there and the Pampas XV is playing a different way and the newer players have been playing this way for quite some time at elite development level now.

Also Robbie Deans should never be appointed a national team coach by anybody. He's a good coach, but a national team coach needs to work with the players they've got, you can't fall out and exclude players like Giteau, Cooper and Smith and get away with it at international. You can mould a squad to the players you like at club level but at international you need more flexible man managers. He's heavily linked to be taking over from Cotter at Clermont anyway.

 

[psychic duck]

For those that are not aware, Phelan's contract expires at the end of the Rugby Championship. And from rumours in the Argentine press, his contract is highly unlikely to be renewed and he is a dead man walking as coach right now, and he is thought to have made plans to quit coaching and return to his textiles factory. So these are Phelan's last matches.

Apparently the UAR have already started the search for a new coach and are hoping for a Super Rugby one with John Kirwan, Jamie Joseph, Michael Cheika and Richard Graham all on the shortlist. With promoting the Pampas XV and Jaguars coach Daniel Hourcade the backup option.

 

[Jaguares]

Why an earth not if the players are there? And they are there and the Pampas XV is playing a different way and the newer players have been playing this way for quite some time at elite development level now.

Also Robbie Deans should never be appointed a national team coach by anybody. He's a good coach, but a national team coach needs to work with the players they've got, you can't fall out and exclude players like Giteau, Cooper and Smith and get away with it at international. You can mould a squad to the players you like at club level but at international you need more flexible man managers. He's heavily linked to be taking over from Cotter at Clermont anyway.

Pampas XV is dead, they have ceased to exist. SARU no longer allowed to play in the Vodacom Cup, this was his last year.

I just mentioned a head coach that could revolutionize the Argentine attack, with its successes and shortcomings, he's sometimes very arrogant. But with all that, he's always concerned in the attacks of their teams. And regarding what you said about Clermont, is true.

Cheers

 

[rgman]

imo definitely a foreign coach is the best thing that could happen to Los Pumas ... Graham Henry's opinion will be the key to decide the new coach?

 

[psychic duck]

Pampas XV is dead, they have ceased to exist. SARU no longer allowed to play in the Vodacom Cup, this was his last year.

That's irrelevant to the point. And they're not "dead" either, just likely to change competition.

imo definitely a foreign coach is the best thing that could happen to Los Pumas ... Graham Henry's opinion will be the key to decide the new coach?

Yes, he's been consulted and is part of the selection process of the next coach to take over for November.

 

[Jaguares]

That's irrelevant to the point. And they're not "dead" either, just likely to change competition.

Not simply: "change competition" and ready. It will be very difficult for them to find a good competition. NZRU and ARU not open the doors, the only association of the SANZAR who opened the door was the SARU and now they close the door.

Argentina probably have to wait until they have a franchise in Super Rugby, perhaps in 2016 to return to having a team of these characteristics.

 

[psychic duck]

Not simply: "change competition" and ready. It will be very difficult for them to find a good competition. NZRU and ARU not open the doors, the only association of the SANZAR who opened the door was the SARU and now they close the door.

Argentina probably have to wait until they have a franchise in Super Rugby, perhaps in 2016 to return to having a team of these characteristics.

Actually ... discussions are in place to add the Pampas XV to the Currie Cup Division 2, and I've not seen that they've been kicked out of the Vodacom Cup either, and if they have been then it's almost certain there's an alternative in the pipeline. So they are far from "dead".

 

[Feicarsinn]

Careful Duck, you're falling for conrad's tactic of attacking the most irrelevant point a previous post in hopes of drawing attention away from the debate he's losing.

 

[Jaguares]

Actually ... discussions are in place to add the Pampas XV to the Currie Cup Division 2, and I've not seen that they've been kicked out of the Vodacom Cup either, and if they have been then it's almost certain there's an alternative in the pipeline. So they are far from "dead".

Ok, I hope the SARU don't close the door to them.

Cheers

 

[welshglory]

Just because a side is known for a style of play doesn't mean they should have stick to the status quo gameplan for eternity. In that case Wales might as well ditch Gatland.

It's about the game plan being suited to the personnel. It is clear that Argentina's strengths are becoming increasingly out wide as opposed to up front, and they should bring in a coach to gear the game more towards their strength of a more potent and talented back three.

So they're supposed to change their style because they've got some useful wingers and fullbacks coming through? They still don't have any centres that can hit a line or outrun anybody the last i checked.

Compared to the other 3 teams they're way behind in terms of attacking backs.

I disagree that this is where their strength is now.

If anything i think Argentina need to utilise a kick chase game more and rely on their defence. This passing side to side nonsence is getting them nowhere.

P.S. Gatland picked a style that he's always used.
AKA; Blitz defence, territorial kicking, posession/crashball running, high fitness levels
He's just got the players now with Wales where it is actually effective.

 

[Big Ewis]

^ well obviously a coach should know his players' ability and come up with a tailor-made program...and it's true obviously Argentina have gradually moved from a setpiece machine to a more wide open game with the likes of Hernandez, Imhoff etc...they've developed good attacking.
But unfortunately it's true the scrum has really dropped in strength and importance in their game. Would be nice that they fully develop those backs' ability and the coach to allow a free-flowing attack definitively.
But obviously the forwards are the concern right now...

 

[psychic duck]

So they're supposed to change their style because they've got some useful wingers and fullbacks coming through? They still don't have any centres that can hit a line or outrun anybody the last i checked.

Compared to the other 3 teams they're way behind in terms of attacking backs.

I disagree that this is where their strength is now.

If anything i think Argentina need to utilise a kick chase game more and rely on their defence. This passing side to side nonsence is getting them nowhere.

P.S. Gatland picked a style that he's always used.
AKA; Blitz defence, territorial kicking, posession/crashball running, high fitness levels
He's just got the players now with Wales where it is actually effective.

Well then you clearly haven't watched the players play enough then. The centre problem is equally due to Phelan refusing to test out the suggested alternatives as well.

The kick chase method is flawed as well, as we've seen what happens there. Argentina 1) barely can get a point and the game is essentially lost as soon as they go 10 points behind 2) will get pasted in the last 20. The defence isn't that great either, Ireland and France had little problem scoring plenty past it. Argentina need to take a leaf out of Eddie Jones' book who has specially constructed a unique style for Japan to suit the players they have, instead of just using a gameplan straight out of a coaching manual.

Argentina's strength is in the loose forwards and back three now, they should try and play a quicker game (which would also help ease up the centre problems) and try and limit time spent in tight play in contact at rucks, mauls and scrums as much as possible.

 

[rgman]

waiting 4 Pumas! watching Clermont vs Oyonnax..."Benjamin Urdapilleta", great player and he is a puma, definitely.