The Autopsy thread: Which England team members are for the chopping block?

[Aristodemus]

Funny that how when you play at Clermont/Toulon you suddenly start looking great. I'm not a fan of May myself but I still wouldn't drop him for Strettle

 

[TobesHodges]

Was he not good at Sarries then?

 

[Aristodemus]

Not really no

Edit: BTW tigs that is a very interesting read on minutes played. A number of mediocre players with high numbers in there

 

[PacDuran]

Not really no

Edit: BTW tigs that is a very interesting read on minutes played. A number of mediocre players with high numbers in there

It's almost as if he gave up on the exciting "new" players as quickly as possibly and gave repeated chances to underperforming bland known quantities as a matter of course.

 

[nickdnz]

I don't disagree with you that the guys playing over in France are great players but Toulon are better than any international team bar NZ .

Or apparently a few Super Rugby teams..

 

[Stewy090]

Just read that they could have included Delon Armatage for his ability to play centre, wing, full back and long distance kicker..I'm sorry did I miss something or did Elliot Daley not get released from the squad who fulfils all the above and was getting regular plaudits for inclusion in the England team by neat all the pundits that ITV are using... No bias intended but with players like Elliot, Henry slade, Christian Wade surely the future can be bright!

 

[Willodell100]

Does any else think Strettle would have been a better option than Watson or May? As an al round player I feel he's better than both..

Not for me. Strettle is a workman like winger. 'Points of difference' (anyone else hate this phrase now!) are his workrate, finishing ability and positioning. When he moved to Saracens they moulded him into this type of winger because that's the way they play.

But at international level I think you need something a bit more than this from our wingers.

Both May & Watson actually had a very good tournament and came out with a lot of credit. More than any others players in my view.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Just read that they could have included Delon Armatage for his ability to play centre, wing, full back and long distance kicker..I'm sorry did I miss something or did Elliot Daley not get released from the squad who fulfils all the above and was getting regular plaudits for inclusion in the England team by neat all the pundits that ITV are using... No bias intended but with players like Elliot, Henry slade, Christian Wade surely the future can be bright!

Wade I'm still not sure in at a international level, but want him to have a shot.

Deleon Armitage I agree Daly a more interesting option IMO only suggested because he is in France.

 

[Stewy090]

Wade had a great showing in Argentina...he does need a good shot at an England spot and with Elliot Daly making a good claim for his performances last season. But I do concur that both Anthony Watson and Jonny May both did well. I guess we can all debate players and positions guess we need to see the fall out post World Cup. England need to at very least need massive win against Uraguay!

 

[valley commando]

If you read most talk is generally about the lack of a genuine open side rather than singalling out Arimtage himself, Kvesic is an option that was never looked at. Included in my assessment is every pundit who says the problem lie elsewhere and it's a multitude of thing.

http://www.skysports.com/rugby-unio...would-steffon-armitage-have-made-a-difference

I suggest you read @TRF_Peat blog as well on this very subject and you'll find it's alot more nuanced than "I got 1 one my 99 predictions before the tournament right". Anyone with half a brain would say Armitage would not of made a difference. And attribute this situation to a multitude of areas and reasons that can't be solely down to one mistake. I was cataloguing mistakes made since the 6 nations in my head earlier when it comes to selection and there are several points where failures happened where a clutch of players were discraded that could of made some kind of difference. Armitage isn't some rugby god called upon Earth to stop us mere mortals, he's not a Pocock or McCaw, he's just one player out of 15 on the pitch where quite a few let us down.

You say you took abuse over Cips yet I'm struggling to think of how many people disagreed with you over that as it was generally considered a decision that could of been made (quite a few other than yourself calling for it Olyy hasn't shut up about it) but wasn't for a few reasons.

You've spoken a lot of nonsense and have been rubbing salt in English wounds for nearly 3 days now while trying to play the hapless victim card which nobody is buying trying to get a rise out anyone who will bite (the very definition of a troll, yes you are one deal with it).

Give me an instance of rubbing salt in wounds, you are a proper merchant of the wind up and are now accusing Moody , Carling etc of having half a brain as they advocated the selection of Armitage.
Secondly I have not made many predictions, certainly not 99, give me an example of a WC prediction I've got wrong.
Next I have posted that I sympathise with England fans, knowing full well the pain of early exit although don't remember us getting much sympathy back, there are however some England fans who are a little bitter and twisted and whose hobby seems to be running certain nations down.
It seems your troll definition ios someone with opposing views to yours.
I am no more a troll than you are so, stop the insults, of which I have been guilty in the past and draw a line under this.

- - - Updated - - -

I think the trouble is England need to stay shoulder to shoulder with the premiership clubs which imo is very important . They are in charge of bringing all the talent through ..

The fallout between the WRU and the clubs should remind you that a battle between club and country doesn't benefit anyone

I don't disagree with you that the guys playing over in France are great players but Toulon are better than any international team bar NZ . Do you not think its a huge coincidence that Abendanon has played for bath for 10 years and been viewed by everyone as a really good club player then goes to France and within weeks becomes a world beater ? Playing in France suits some players and not others .

I don't think we should change a whole system for a couple of players I do however feel we should for the first time in a decade hire a coaching team with real pedigree and see if that works (which I'm sure it will) we have the players already we just need a coach to make it click

Yes I take your point re playing abroad fits with some players, but don't you think some sort of sensible compromise would be beneficial, with contract release clauses written in, so if a club from France or any other country wants to sign a player from another country there is no future disagreement and they no what they are paying for from the outset.
From the game footage I have seen Abendenon has improved since moving to Clermont, maybe that is down to the way he is coached there and or a combination of the environment and players around him, which leads me to the point that giving players the opportunity to play in other countries will improve some and ultimately benefit the country they play for.

 

[ncurd]

I can't remember the last time Carling had anything good to say about the England side he's almost been a professional England basher since he retired and is always good for a quote when England lose to keep up his relevancy.

Moody less so but equally I've not read anything by him other than this.

Point being you can always find someone to jump on the Armtitage bandwagon doesn't make them right.

 

[valley commando]

I can't remember the last time Carling had anything good to say about the England side he's almost been a professional England basher since he retired and is always good for a quote when England lose to keep up his relevancy.

Moody less so but equally I've not read anything by him other than this.

Point being you can always find someone to jump on the Armtitage bandwagon doesn't make them right.

If possible listen to the Talk sport podcast interview with Moody it was a well reasoned unbiased conversation. I do get the feeling that Moody is a decent guy and finds it hard to point the finger of blame on anyone.

 

[Peat]

I've gotta say, I've seen a lot more people say they'd have preferred Armitage to be there than not. And, while I don't think it was the main thing, I do reckon having him there would be better than not, although a last minute drop in would have been very damaging in a lot of ways and I wish he'd been brought back earlier without changing the rules. All natural scepticism of how I'd look at the higher level/less dominant pack, there's a pretty strong chance he's one of our top 5 back rowers, because look at the others.

I'm all for evolution rather than revolution but, save maybe Robshaw switched to 6, Lancaster's recent choices at flanker need to perform out of their socks and find a whole new level to stay.

 

[Willodell100]

The irony is Lewis Moody was to Martin Johnson what Chris Robshaw is to Stuart Lancaster! Very similar players too in that both were 6s pushed into the 7 shirt. Maybe Johnson started a trend that Lancaster liked the look of? Looking at the Telegraph stats from an earlier post it certainly looks that way.

With regards to the whole Steffon Armitage / foreign based players debate - for me it's a red herring!

Yes the RFU should look at it again but I don't think it would have made the difference in this World Cup. This World Cup was lost in the team selection meetings rather than on the pitch.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

The irony is Lewis Moody was to Martin Johnson what Chris Robshaw is to Stuart Lancaster! Very similar players too in that both were 6s pushed into the 7 shirt. Maybe Johnson started a trend that Lancaster liked the look of? Looking at the Telegraph stats from an earlier post it certainly looks that way.

With regards to the whole Steffon Armitage / foreign based players debate - for me it's a red herring!

Yes the RFU should look at it again but I don't think it would have made the difference in this World Cup. This World Cup was lost in the team selection meetings rather than on the pitch.

See what you mean..

For me though, Moody was more an issue of old favouritism - he should never have been much involved at all.
Whereas I'm happy for Robshaw to play a role in our back-row - just not if he's seen as our main breakdown specialist!!

 

[Peat]

The trend of putting players who'd be 6s anywhere else into the 7 jersey in England is far, far older than Lewis Moody - just ask Neil Back - but as far as I'm aware, Moody in fact started as Back's understudy. The man who played 7 for Johnson when halfway fit was a far cry from the player who played in 2003.

 

[ncurd]

I've gotta say, I've seen a lot more people say they'd have preferred Armitage to be there than not. And, while I don't think it was the main thing, I do reckon having him there would be better than not, although a last minute drop in would have been very damaging in a lot of ways and I wish he'd been brought back earlier without changing the rules. All natural scepticism of how I'd look at the higher level/less dominant pack, there's a pretty strong chance he's one of our top 5 back rowers, because look at the others.

I'm all for evolution rather than revolution but, save maybe Robshaw switched to 6, Lancaster's recent choices at flanker need to perform out of their socks and find a whole new level to stay.

I think it's key to remember this has been part of the England rulebook for the entire cycle. Whether it's good, bad or just doesn't make a difference changing the rules at the last minute to accommodate when others have been playing by those rules is not the best of ideas. It's potentially equally or more disrupted than parachuting Burgess in from league has been by some reports because at least Burgess had club players within the squad he could turn to.

If the rules need to be changed they need to be early enough in a cycle that players know full well what their options are. I'd also not drop it immediately and give it a 6-12 month cooling off period so people in contract negotiations can make decisions. You'd be pretty peeved just signing a 2 year deal for Newcastle when Toulon were interested and the rules were just dropped. If the rules are kept more effort needs to be made to bring performing players back which certainly did not happen with Armitage.

This however almost certainly is not the silver bullet to why we're out though.

 

[Willodell100]

The trend of putting players who'd be 6s anywhere else into the 7 jersey in England is far, far older than Lewis Moody - just ask Neil Back - but as far as I'm aware, Moody in fact started as Back's understudy. The man who played 7 for Johnson when halfway fit was a far cry from the player who played in 2003.

I agree with it going back much further. Backy was very unlucky to not get more caps for England & the Lions.

Moody was cover for 6 & 7 in 2003. A good replacement to have on the bench at the time because of his versatility but essentially he was a tackle machine that would hit ruck after ruck and pretty handy in a line-out. In essence a 6.

 

[spartan32]

I've got to throw this in. SL stated that one of the reasons he didn't select Armitage at 7 is because it would have seemed Divisive and effected the moral on the camp, even though he is clearly the best Englishman to fill the role, then in the next breath he selects Burgess who has no track record and is picked purely because he is teachers pet. This is just one of a number of examples of SL and his team being totally inconsistent, and why he must go.

England have a wealth of talented young players, and with the right coach could easily obtain and hold a top 4 spot in world rugby. In fact with all the money and support afforded to English rugby anything less is totally unacceptable.

The future should be very bright for us once the rot is cut out for good. We have so many young lads who can step into roles, Devoto, Slade, Henry, Wade, the list goes on and on. We should have a squad 40 strong with like for likes in abundance, and with that being the case I hope there are several quality SH coaches out there who would relish a shot.

 

[MrTea_32]

I've got to throw this in. SL stated that one of the reasons he didn't select Armitage at 7 is because it would have seemed Divisive and effected the moral on the camp, even though he is clearly the best Englishman to fill the role, then in the next breath he selects Burgess who has no track record and is picked purely because he is teachers pet. This is just one of a number of examples of SL and his team being totally inconsistent, and why he must go.

England have a wealth of talented young players, and with the right coach could easily obtain and hold a top 4 spot in world rugby. In fact with all the money and support afforded to English rugby anything less is totally unacceptable.

The future should be very bright for us once the rot is cut out for good. We have so many young lads who can step into roles, Devoto, Slade, Henry, Wade, the list goes on and on. We should have a squad 40 strong with like for likes in abundance, and with that being the case I hope there are several quality SH coaches out there who would relish a shot.

Alot of people have been mentioning Devoto lately but he needs to get alot more game time at Bath instead of being second choice to Eastmond, both are candidates for the England 12 shirt.