Super Rugby Expansion

[NZbloke]

100%. The old format of just playing everyone once could have worked, then just alternate home-away the next year.

Precisely mate, that would clearly be the best option - there's just no logic in having such a ridiculous format... can't think of any other top comps in any other sports around the world that have such a ludicrous system.

 

[higgik]

Precisely mate, that would clearly be the best option - there's just no logic in having such a ridiculous format... can't think of any other top comps in any other sports around the world that have such a ludicrous system.

Reason, more derbies wanted.

 

[BlackFalcon]

The clear area for expansion is South Australia. Bring on the Adelaide Black Falcons.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

The clear area for expansion is South Australia. Bring on the Adelaide Black Falcons.

id love to hear a bit more info about this idea, aussie seems to be somewhere between struggling and just managing to produce enough players for 5 teams, can they produce their own players? is there a squads worth of super rugby level players in SA right now that arent going to the other states to play?

for me we need to bring japanese teams back in

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

So on top of the Jaguares being invited back I missed this talk of Hawaii and Japan (1x team) being under consideration as options by NZ and Aus.

Shock Hawaii call in Super Rugby expansion

'We'll absolutely get there'

wwos.nine.com.au

So kicking out the Jaguares (after they reached the SR finals) and not being so welcoming to the Sunwolves (so they leave). Then possibly reversing that position a few years later when the trust has been destroyed between partners. Shambles.

As long as it does not undermine Super Rugby Americas (e.g. Argentina and USA withdraw from it) then I am in favour of it, but what a mess.

It is also really weird to be making noises about incorporating Japan and USA at the same time as seemingly trying to kill the proposed APAC Tier2 competition that could easily be used as an avenue for promoting the strongest from Japan, North America, South America and the PIs into a 6 nation TRC. And going for a World League that will seemingly exclude North America from Tier1 competitions until at least 2032 regardless of how they perform.

If Aus and NZ do not get a coherent, consistent strategy going that incorporates the commercial potential of Japan and North America then I really fear the worst for rugby in that corner of the world. Anyone could see it was short termist to not bend over backwards to nurture a long term relationship with Japan (beyond extra international friendlies with them) following the successful RWC 2019. Japan have been making noises about being interested in a relationship, so hopefully its not too late.

 

[higgik]

So on top of the Jaguares being invited back I missed this talk of Hawaii and Japan (1x team) being under consideration as options by NZ and Aus.

Shock Hawaii call in Super Rugby expansion

'We'll absolutely get there'

wwos.nine.com.au

So kicking out the Jaguares (after they reached the SR finals) and not being so welcoming to the Sunwolves (so they leave). Then possibly reversing that position a few years later when the trust has been destroyed between partners. Shambles.

As long as it does not undermine Super Rugby Americas (e.g. Argentina and USA withdraw from it) then I am in favour of it, but what a mess.

It is also really weird to be making noises about incorporating Japan and USA at the same time as seemingly trying to kill the proposed APAC Tier2 competition that could easily be used as an avenue for promoting the strongest from Japan, North America, South America and the PIs into a 6 nation TRC. And going for a World League that will seemingly exclude North America from Tier1 competitions until at least 2032 regardless of how they perform.

If Aus and NZ do not get a coherent, consistent strategy going that incorporates the commercial potential of Japan and North America then I really fear the worst for rugby in that corner of the world. Anyone could see it was short termist to not bend over backwards to nurture a long term relationship with Japan (beyond extra international friendlies with them) following the successful RWC 2019. Japan have been making noises about being interested in a relationship, so hopefully its not too late.

This is the one region that seems to be struggling to work out how to develop the game.
In Europe, Black Lion are in EPRC, while the tier below is developing nicely.
In Africa, SA are trying to get Kenya and Namibia into CC, but lack of finance is making it difficult.
In Asia/Pacific, though, there seems to be a wariness of private finance in the game, which is restricting development of new teams.
Maybe moving Moana to Hawaii would bring in new funding.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

So on top of the Jaguares being invited back I missed this talk of Hawaii and Japan (1x team) being under consideration as options by NZ and Aus.

Shock Hawaii call in Super Rugby expansion

'We'll absolutely get there'

wwos.nine.com.au

So kicking out the Jaguares (after they reached the SR finals) and not being so welcoming to the Sunwolves (so they leave). Then possibly reversing that position a few years later when the trust has been destroyed between partners. Shambles.

As long as it does not undermine Super Rugby Americas (e.g. Argentina and USA withdraw from it) then I am in favour of it, but what a mess.

It is also really weird to be making noises about incorporating Japan and USA at the same time as seemingly trying to kill the proposed APAC Tier2 competition that could easily be used as an avenue for promoting the strongest from Japan, North America, South America and the PIs into a 6 nation TRC. And going for a World League that will seemingly exclude North America from Tier1 competitions until at least 2032 regardless of how they perform.

If Aus and NZ do not get a coherent, consistent strategy going that incorporates the commercial potential of Japan and North America then I really fear the worst for rugby in that corner of the world. Anyone could see it was short termist to not bend over backwards to nurture a long term relationship with Japan (beyond extra international friendlies with them) following the successful RWC 2019. Japan have been making noises about being interested in a relationship, so hopefully its not too late.

"kicking out" is slightly inflammatory....borders were effectively shut for 2.5 years and so they had to make something new to keep going, new broadcast deals had to be made for new comps etc, the real world doesnt suddenly just go back to what it use to be after doing something different for that long.

The Sunwolves we also not being supported by Rugby Japan (who were working on their new domestic league) and so were getting propped up by SAANZAR

Would happily welcome back the Jags or a Japanese team

As for Hawaii, there was a Hawaiian bid when MP and Drua were introduced, from memory it was a bit dodgy for some reason so hopefully anything new is a bit more legit

 

[Brigantine]

They may have blundered with the expansion to 18 and then making panicked decisions based on fan reactions after only half a cycle...

But then what happened with South Africa is a material change in circumstances and they couldn't not reset their strategy. Even if it's disruptive and only held together by the kind of bridges you see in Ukraine.

is also open to the idea of adding Japan back

And Japan is not open to paying a large & unique participation fee. Based on just this, nothing has changed, nothing will change, we won't the Sunwolves play again.
But a team in Hawaii might have quite a few Japanese players & fans. Hawaii is 14% ethnically Japanese, so comparable to having Moana in Auckland

The main story seems to be the player draft... Worth a shot!

 

[Kiwiwomble]

And Japan is not open to paying a large & unique participation fee. Based on just this, nothing has changed, nothing will change, we won't the Sunwolves play again.
But a team in Hawaii might have quite a few Japanese players & fans. Hawaii is 14% ethnically Japanese, so comparable to having Moana in Auckland

that hasnt been a huge success, Drua has....but MP has lost two of its best players and so already becoming a feeder to the other NZ teams. I think that licence might need to either move elsewhere in NZ and just be another NZ team (central NI?) or actually base themselves in Tonga/Samoa

I'm in the ditch super camp, 10 team NPC with promotion/relegation to leagues below and the top 5/6 teams from that play super rugby the next season, stop splitting attention/sponsorship/disposable income between different teams, build some passion back into NPC and give them something exciting to play for

 

[Brigantine]

that hasnt been a huge success, Drua has....but MP has lost two of its best players and so already becoming a feeder to the other NZ teams. I think that licence might need to either move elsewhere in NZ and just be another NZ team (central NI?) or actually base themselves in Tonga/Samoa

I'm in the ditch super camp, 10 team NPC with promotion/relegation to leagues below and the top 5/6 teams from that play super rugby the next season, stop splitting attention/sponsorship/disposable income between different teams, build some passion back into NPC and give them something exciting to play for

I suspect it will be Moana in Hawaii. But also, how will a player draft affect Moana?

 

[Kiwiwomble]

I suspect it will be Moana in Hawaii. But also, how will a player draft affect Moana?

wont be that as MP franchise is owned by NZR so is effectively a 6th NZ team pretending to be something different

There is no player draft in SRA, i like the idea of something to help level the playing field but haven't seen a format that would work

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

"kicking out" is slightly inflammatory....borders were effectively shut for 2.5 years and so they had to make something new to keep going, new broadcast deals had to be made for new comps etc, the real world doesnt suddenly just go back to what it use to be after doing something different for that long.

The Sunwolves we also not being supported by Rugby Japan (who were working on their new domestic league) and so were getting propped up by SAANZAR

Would happily welcome back the Jags or a Japanese team

As for Hawaii, there was a Hawaiian bid when MP and Drua were introduced, from memory it was a bit dodgy for some reason so hopefully anything new is a bit more legit

Apologies if I am wrong. I thought the Jaguares were decided to be removed from a reduced Super Rugby (against their will) before Covid (I am sure we knew they were leaving even as they played in the final and that was pre-Covid?). Lost in the mists of time.

Yes, the Japan one is less clear cut. It may have taken a sacrifice from SANZAAR to keep them beyond 2019, but i think that was one well worth making over the medium to long term for Aus and NZ.

 

[The Seeker]

So on top of the Jaguares being invited back I missed this talk of Hawaii and Japan (1x team) being under consideration as options by NZ and Aus.

Shock Hawaii call in Super Rugby expansion

'We'll absolutely get there'

wwos.nine.com.au

So kicking out the Jaguares (after they reached the SR finals) and not being so welcoming to the Sunwolves (so they leave). Then possibly reversing that position a few years later when the trust has been destroyed between partners. Shambles.

As long as it does not undermine Super Rugby Americas (e.g. Argentina and USA withdraw from it) then I am in favour of it, but what a mess.

It is also really weird to be making noises about incorporating Japan and USA at the same time as seemingly trying to kill the proposed APAC Tier2 competition that could easily be used as an avenue for promoting the strongest from Japan, North America, South America and the PIs into a 6 nation TRC. And going for a World League that will seemingly exclude North America from Tier1 competitions until at least 2032 regardless of how they perform.

If Aus and NZ do not get a coherent, consistent strategy going that incorporates the commercial potential of Japan and North America then I really fear the worst for rugby in that corner of the world. Anyone could see it was short termist to not bend over backwards to nurture a long term relationship with Japan (beyond extra international friendlies with them) following the successful RWC 2019. Japan have been making noises about being interested in a relationship, so hopefully its not too late.

The Sunwolves, I miss that team. They didn't win much but their fans in Tokyo showed up and really got into their games, even when they were getting blown out.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Apologies if I am wrong. I thought the Jaguares were decided to be removed from a reduced Super Rugby (against their will) before Covid (I am sure we knew they were leaving even as they played in the final and that was pre-Covid?). Lost in the mists of time.

Yes, the Japan one is less clear cut. It may have taken a sacrifice from SANZAAR to keep them beyond 2019, but i think that was one well worth making over the medium to long term for Aus and NZ.

no, japan looked like they werent going to get the franchise renewed (possibly confirmed) as i say because they didnt have the backing of JRU and so were losing money hand over fist, i get that argument but its sets a precedent, i think we should have worked out a way for the winner of the japanese domestic league to play super rugby the next season or something, just to get JRU on board

Jags were still locked in pre COVID, as you say they made the final and were growing very nicely

Much like the South African teams, there was lots of debate about how well the format worked, time of games , like games in south africa were often during the day meaning middle of the night for us to watch but we played all our games at 7:50 so SA fans could get up and watch first thing in the morning, a demand of having the larger TV deal apparently. Whilst there was lots of chat about if there was a better way to run it...generally i think people still wanted SA in the comp, it was only COVID that forced the issue

 

[The Seeker]

Apologies if I am wrong. I thought the Jaguares were decided to be removed from a reduced Super Rugby (against their will) before Covid (I am sure we knew they were leaving even as they played in the final and that was pre-Covid?). Lost in the mists of time.

Yes, the Japan one is less clear cut. It may have taken a sacrifice from SANZAAR to keep them beyond 2019, but i think that was one well worth making over the medium to long term for Aus and NZ.

Here's what Tony Brown, the former Sunwolves coach had to say on the topic.

Tony Brown: Why SA Rugby wanted Sunwolves out | Sport

Sunwolves coach Tony Brown believes bad blood between SA and Japan played a part in the Japanese franchise losing its Super Rugby status.

www.news24.com

 

[saulan]

Here's what Tony Brown, the former Sunwolves coach had to say on the topic.

Tony Brown: Why SA Rugby wanted Sunwolves out | Sport

Sunwolves coach Tony Brown believes bad blood between SA and Japan played a part in the Japanese franchise losing its Super Rugby status.

www.news24.com

I remember the key thing being the lack of them being willing to pay a participation fee, which I believe other teams were doing (and is what SA URC teams are doing now until they become established in the league). It definitely made sense from the NZ and Aus perspective for them to pursue it now, but I definitely don't think the SA unions were happy that a Japan based team was being added to an SA pool which added a lot of travel to our teams in addition to NZ/Aus tours.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

I remember the key thing being the lack of them being willing to pay a participation fee, which I believe other teams were doing (and is what SA URC teams are doing now until they become established in the league). It definitely made sense from the NZ and Aus perspective for them to pursue it now, but I definitely don't think the SA unions were happy that a Japan based team was being added to an SA pool which added a lot of travel to our teams in addition to NZ/Aus tours.

the Jags were in the SA pool, Japan went into the Aussie pool to bring them to 5 teams after the force were dropped

 

[higgik]

I remember the key thing being the lack of them being willing to pay a participation fee, which I believe other teams were doing (and is what SA URC teams are doing now until they become established in the league). It definitely made sense from the NZ and Aus perspective for them to pursue it now, but I definitely don't think the SA unions were happy that a Japan based team was being added to an SA pool which added a lot of travel to our teams in addition to NZ/Aus tours.

SA teams in URC makes sense for time zones, while adding Japan to SRP would also make sense.
If the unions allowed more private investment and less control over players, the money in Japan and the players from Aus and NZ would make a competitive competition.
Add in Chinese money to, say a HK team and maybe SRP could become a winner.
Finally, allow MP to move to Hawaii with US investment, add in a 6th NZ team and league becomes interesting.

Meanwhile SRA expands to USA and Canada.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

SA teams in URC makes sense for time zones, while adding Japan to SRP would also make sense.
If the unions allowed more private investment and less control over players, the money in Japan and the players from Aus and NZ would make a competitive competition.
Add in Chinese money to, say a HK team and maybe SRP could become a winner.
Finally, allow MP to move to Hawaii with US investment, add in a 6th NZ team and league becomes interesting.

Meanwhile SRA expands to USA and Canada.

unfortunately, there is a strong belief that a competitive competition that is based on NZ and Aus players joining japanese teams (or even NZ players joining aus teams) will mean the ABs suffer, the idea being there is a hard cap on the number of top rugby players in NZ and the bets ones will be lured away

A LOT of people want a small top quality comp (even if dominated by the same teams) rather than a large competitive one

 

[The Seeker]

unfortunately, there is a strong belief that a competitive competition that is based on NZ and Aus players joining japanese teams (or even NZ players joining aus teams) will mean the ABs suffer, the idea being there is a hard cap on the number of top rugby players in NZ and the bets ones will be lured away

A LOT of people want a small top quality comp (even if dominated by the same teams) rather than a large competitive one

14 teams is perfect for me. Add a Japanese team and a Hawaiian or Hong Kong team and there you have it. But SRP hasn't asked for my opinion...yet.