Stephen Jones...

mania · Nov 11, 2018

The_Blindside said:
He gave Maro 9/10 in the ST today and only 6/10 for Rettalick. He really doesn't rate Rettalick does he?

agree . whilst retallick worked hard ; it wasnt his best game this year but he def played better than maro. if retallick got a 6/10 then itoje should only get a 5 at best

Bada-Bing! · Mar 22, 2020

LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan) · Mar 22, 2020

AWJ and Dawes ahead of Johnson and McCaw

Sounds about right for SJ.
Surprised Warburton wasn't ahead of Johnson also.

also since when is Lock a non intellectual position. Usually 1 of the locks has to be the main thinker of a pack IMO.

profitius · Mar 22, 2020

Tigs Man said:
AWJ and Dawes ahead of Johnson and McCaw

Sounds about right for SJ.
Surprised Warburton wasn't ahead of Johnson also.

also since when is Lock a non intellectual position. Usually 1 of the locks has to be the main thinker of a pack IMO.

Being a rugby writer these days is also a non intellectual position.

TRF_Olyy · Mar 22, 2020

Remember when AWJ got shouted down by Biggar and changed from going for a shot at goal to going for the corner and then they lost the lineout and came away with no points

A real leader of men and the greatest captain this sport has ever seen.

Leonormous Boozer · Mar 22, 2020

I think it has to be Johnson as much as I dislike him, he wasn't selective with his leadership or play, whether it was the Lions, England or Leicester. You can't say the same about McCaw.

AWJ probably isn't even in the top 5 captains of all time who played lock... Johnson, Matfield, Eales, O'Connell and McBride would all get my vote ahead of him, there's almost certainly more too.

pagliaccio_euforico · Mar 22, 2020

Wtf is a Dawes?

Vieux Talonneur · Mar 22, 2020

themole25 said:
Wtf is a Dawes?

Captain of the only Lions team to win series in NZ.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Dawes

Also involved in "the try".

g6mcg · Mar 22, 2020

The Alpha Bro said:
I think it has to be Johnson as much as I dislike him, he wasn't selective with his leadership or play, whether it was the Lions, England or Leicester. You can't say the same about McCaw.

What do you mean?

mania · Mar 23, 2020

g6mcg said:
What do you mean?

Yeah I wanna know too

mania · Mar 23, 2020

Anyway Wayne shelford

Leonormous Boozer · Mar 23, 2020

g6mcg said:
What do you mean?

McCaw didn't play club rugby for half of his career, played more for NZ than the Crusaders. I totally understand, and even agree, why he did it but it's not leadership at Johnson's level.

RedruthRFC · Mar 23, 2020

mania said:
Anyway Wayne shelford

I'm a massive fan, there's so many things that ink his name in to rugby fokelore (The Battle of Nantes, Huw Richards, the haka). I don't know anything about his domestic career in NZ, but the influence he had at Northampton was incredible, I put his name forward as the best import ever in English club rugby in another thread. However, the fact that he never led NZ to a RWC and the limited number of caps that he won (even less as captain) rules him out of the GOAT captain conversation for me.

RedruthRFC · Mar 23, 2020

Going back to Jones re: AWJ, the biggest problem with his argument is Sam Warburton. If Jones is such a great captain, why was Warburton chosen ahead of him? If Gatland regretted this decision by 2017, why did he go with Warburton for the Lions? Not trying to debate the merits of either, just saying that there's little or no case for picking Jones ahead of Warburton - if he's going for a left field number one pick, then it should have been Warburton. The fact that this would seem so mad suggests to me that he's picking AWJ the player, more than AWJ the captain.

ncurd · Mar 23, 2020

RedruthRFC said:
Going back to Jones re: AWJ, the biggest problem with his argument is Sam Warburton. If Jones is such a great captain, why was Warburton chosen ahead of him? If Gatland regretted this decision by 2017, why did he go with Warburton for the Lions? Not trying to debate the merits of either, just saying that there's little or no case for picking Jones ahead of Warburton - if he's going for a left field number one pick, then it should have been Warburton. The fact that this would seem so mad suggests to me that he's picking AWJ the player, more than AWJ the captain.

But if picking the player does he even make a list of great locks?

Johnson could lay claim to ***les of best Lions/Internationa;/Domestic captain and best lock, AWJ isn't close on any accounts and on combined he's still way behind.

Ragey Erasmus · Mar 23, 2020

RedruthRFC said:
Going back to Jones re: AWJ, the biggest problem with his argument is Sam Warburton. If Jones is such a great captain, why was Warburton chosen ahead of him? If Gatland regretted this decision by 2017, why did he go with Warburton for the Lions? Not trying to debate the merits of either, just saying that there's little or no case for picking Jones ahead of Warburton - if he's going for a left field number one pick, then it should have been Warburton. The fact that this would seem so mad suggests to me that he's picking AWJ the player, more than AWJ the captain.

Not even that, he's picking AWJ the myth that has been pounded into Welsh rugby fans heads that he is genuinely one of the best players to ever grace the game. As a player he is certainly good but not the best lock. As a captain, he actually isn't that great at decision making. His main point is he knows how to whinge to get penalties and wind up his opposition. For penalty winning shithousery he is certainly one of the best in the world. For some that is all a captain needs to do, and there is an argument that can be made for that. For the most part it only works when refs are on your side. If you start winding them up or your team are the ones being cynical, it counts for a lot less. In those situations, AWJ has little else to offer that makes him stand out as a player or captain.

RedruthRFC · Mar 23, 2020

ncurd said:
But if picking the player does he even make a list of great locks?

Johnson could lay claim to ***les of best Lions/Internationa;/Domestic captain and best lock, AWJ isn't close on any accounts and on combined he's still way behind.

You're preaching to the converted. As I said, I was just guessing at the rationale, not debating the merit of the selection. As you say, given that Johnson was a better lock and a better captain, it makes no sense.

FWIW, it would depend how long the list is.Off the top of my head, in my time, he's definately behind Johnson, Eales, Retallick, Eales, O'Connell and Matfield, possibly Botha, Whitelock and Thorn. Going back, he's almost certainly behind Meads, possibly Willie John and probably a fair few other names that I'm forgetting or am unaware of.

mania · Mar 25, 2020

RedruthRFC said:
I'm a massive fan, there's so many things that ink his name in to rugby fokelore (The Battle of Nantes, Huw Richards, the haka). I don't know anything about his domestic career in NZ, but the influence he had at Northampton was incredible, I put his name forward as the best import ever in English club rugby in another thread. However, the fact that he never led NZ to a RWC and the limited number of caps that he won (even less as captain) rules him out of the GOAT captain conversation for me.

buck was part of the 87 WC winning ABs . buck was undefeated as allBlacks captain which is why it was such a controversy when he got dumped. it was a situation of the aucklander's, especially grantFox , who couldnt control him or make him play grantFox's way of constantly kicking the ball.
in domestic he was a legend. he'd be just as quick to threaten you with a hiding or protect you in the rucks with his body.
whilst richie was the better player and captain, buck you just knew you'd follow him through hell

RedruthRFC · Mar 25, 2020

mania said:
buck was part of the 87 WC winning ABs . buck was undefeated as allBlacks captain which is why it was such a controversy when he got dumped. it was a situation of the aucklander's, especially grantFox , who couldnt control him or make him play grantFox's way of constantly kicking the ball.

The "Bring Back Buck" thing passed me by at the time, I was only 10 and the world was a much bigger place back then. Funnily enough, I think that the first All Blacks match I watched might have been Buck's last, when the Scots had a good go at the ABs in the second test in 1990. On the plus side, it did usher in the Zinzan era. Talking of his, I heard his give an after dinner talk a couple of years ago, I was sorely tempted to bring a "Bring Back Buck" sign with me, but am bloody glad I didn't - he's a bigger bloke than he looked on the rugby pitch!

In hindsight, I don't understand the love Grant Fox. From what I remember about him, his style flew in the face of what I consider AB rugby, or is that more of a recent thing? They were certainly in the running rugby mould by the 1995 RWC.

mania · Mar 26, 2020

RedruthRFC said:
In hindsight, I don't understand the love Grant Fox. From what I remember about him, his style flew in the face of what I consider AB rugby, or is that more of a recent thing? They were certainly in the running rugby mould by the 1995 RWC.

the running game was always there but foxs kicking game was primary. the thing was tho that game plan only worked with fox
then cullen brought the running game back and saved nz rugby

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