Stars of the future?

[TRF_Olyy]

Hugo "Future of Welsh Rugby" Ellis

 

[cyRil]

That's the one!

 

[nickdnz]

Julian Savea to be the next big winger and Tim Nanai-Williams to be the next best fullback come 2015.

 

[ranger]

If i were to throw an NZ team together roughly following that criteria i would go with these guys.. (I tried to avoid guys that had played international U20 rugby already as they are fairly well known.)

1)Reg Goodes
2)Rhys Marshall
3)Ofa Tuungafasi
4)Nick Ross
5)Kane Barrett
6)Heydon Bedwell-Curtis
7)Sam Cane
8)Mark Atkins
9)TJ Parenara
10)Beauden Barrett/Lima Sopoaga/Gareth Anscombe
11)Hanipale Galo
12)Jared Poi-McAllister
13)Chauncy Edwardson
14)Gillies Kaka
15)Albert Nikora

Add to that Matt McGahn and Tupou Sopoaga who would have been cracking players had they not signed onto the NRL. No doubt they will be in Kiwis jerseys before long.

 

[tinchy17]

What about James Short? He's scored a lot of tries for Saracens.

 

[gingergenius]

And Wayne Evans, and Hugo Ellis, and Matthew Jones, and Aled Brew, and Rhodri Gomer Davies and let's get Paul Turner in as national coach.

I know Hugo's family, and unfortunately for him, it's not looking like he's got a big future at all. He moved from Wasps to NG for first team oppurtunities. He's 23 or so, and isn't getting any 1st team oppurtunities with a shite region. Great shame for someone who was captain of a very talented agegroup for England (Ellis, Simpson, Waldouck, Cipriani, Goode, Cato, Saull, Corbisiero, etc.)

 

[dullonien]

I know Hugo's family, and unfortunately for him, it's not looking like he's got a big future at all. He moved from Wasps to NG for first team oppurtunities. He's 23 or so, and isn't getting any 1st team oppurtunities with a shite region. Great shame for someone who was captain of a very talented agegroup for England (Ellis, Simpson, Waldouck, Cipriani, Goode, Cato, Saull, Corbisiero, etc.)

Yeh, I've been a little surprised by his lack of gametime at the Dragons, especially considering the injury that's kept Bearman out of the team up untill now. He can't of progressed much from his U20 level, where he stood out for me in many games at the U20 WC in Wales (for the wrong reason in one aswell). The Dragons are always willing to give players with potential a decent amount of chance, he can't be impressing much in training. He played against Sale on Friday and tbh was annonomous throughout. Bearman played much better on his first outing since injury, and Lewis Evans looked much better when he came on aswell!

Does he get any gametime atall though? Most players who aren't imvolved with matchday squads at regional level drop down to their respective Premiership clubs, but is he affiliated with one? If he isn't, then it's gonna be tough for him to improve without getting gametime under his belt. Mybe he's just one of those players who simply can't make the step-up from age grade rugby to pro rugby. This seems a bit of a problem with English youth players, whearas the majority of players involved at U20 level with Wales quickly become regional players and a large percentage eventually become full Welsh internationals. Considering the quality of English youth teams (their U20 team generally do better than the Welsh U20's), not as many make it at pro level, or at least take much, much longer to do so.

Those players you mention above were playing U20 at the same time as many up and coming Welsh players, yet much more of the Welsh players have made it at international level already. Halfpenny, Jon Davies, Biggar (not really shone at international level mind), Warburton; Turnbull, Bevington and Andrews are now involved. Tipuric will soon be involved. Daniel Evans has also been capped.

 

[Draggs]

And Wayne Evans, and Hugo Ellis, and Matthew Jones, and Aled Brew, and Rhodri Gomer Davies and let's get Paul Turner in as national coach.

Even jokingly I cannot agree.

Hugo Ellis started againt Sale on Saturday and has been playing regularly for Newport RFC. His biggest problem is that Faletau has been playing well at 8 this season. If he could play 7 he would be in no doubt.

 

[iWin]

A couple of calls from the Quins squad - Ross Chisholm and Sam Smith. Could easily see both of these starting in an England squad in the future.
Tuilagi and Twelvetrees look like it's only a matter of time now, the way they've been performing for Leicester.
Joe Ford and Owen Farrell will be pushing for the 10 shirt as well.

 

[gingergenius]

Yeh, I've been a little surprised by his lack of gametime at the Dragons, especially considering the injury that's kept Bearman out of the team up untill now. He can't of progressed much from his U20 level, where he stood out for me in many games at the U20 WC in Wales (for the wrong reason in one aswell). The Dragons are always willing to give players with potential a decent amount of chance, he can't be impressing much in training. He played against Sale on Friday and tbh was annonomous throughout. Bearman played much better on his first outing since injury, and Lewis Evans looked much better when he came on aswell!

Does he get any gametime atall though? Most players who aren't imvolved with matchday squads at regional level drop down to their respective Premiership clubs, but is he affiliated with one? If he isn't, then it's gonna be tough for him to improve without getting gametime under his belt. Mybe he's just one of those players who simply can't make the step-up from age grade rugby to pro rugby. This seems a bit of a problem with English youth players, whearas the majority of players involved at U20 level with Wales quickly become regional players and a large percentage eventually become full Welsh internationals. Considering the quality of English youth teams (their U20 team generally do better than the Welsh U20's), not as many make it at pro level, or at least take much, much longer to do so.

Those players you mention above were playing U20 at the same time as many up and coming Welsh players, yet much more of the Welsh players have made it at international level already. Halfpenny, Jon Davies, Biggar (not really shone at international level mind), Warburton; Turnbull, Bevington and Andrews are now involved. Tipuric will soon be involved. Daniel Evans has also been capped.

well when you're as lacking in depth as Wales are it's inevitable that U20s players will be called up quicker. As for internationals - well Martin johnson for one is uber conservative - he'd rather pick an ageing journeyman like Hendre Fourie than any of our young prospects. So the head coach can get in the way of youngsters making it to the very top. Were I head coach, for example, the likes of Saull and Waldouck would have a few caps already, while other guys who've got 1 or 2 like Robshaw would have a few more.

What I hear about Hugo is that he's not developed the physicality that 8s need to have. He was always a very talented footballer, but hasn't developed the ball-carrying skills of a classy 8. Shame really, he spent the whole of his youth playing for a school side with Joe Simpson and ******* on everyone & a club side with Simpson and Waldouck and ******* on everyone (except their big rivals who contained Cipriani & Odejobi).

English prem sides are quite happy to give gametime to youngsters. Look at Waldouck, Cips & Simpson at Wasps; Saull, Goode, Farrell, Powell, Cato & Short at Saracens... I could name a list for every prem club. I do think, at the moment, at club level english and welsh coaches are on the same page vis a vis youth. But internationally it's different, firstly because we've got a lot more depth, and secondly because Gatland has no fear of chucking 18 year olds in, while Johnson would rather pick a thirtysomething.

 

[dullonien]

Bit of a pitty that Johnson has reverted to picking the older players over the youngsters you've mentioned, as when he finally picked a few youngsters like Foden and Ashton last season, England looked a team transformed. I know there's a little more bureaucracy involved in the English game, with the EPS and Saxon squads having to be picked and then very little leaway of changing them, and this doesn't help to pick a youngster out of the blue in the way Wales can and have done with the likes of North and Halfpenny recently, and Hook a few years back. I'd be quite confident that if Manu Tuilagi was eligible to play for Wales, he'd have been included in the 6 nations squad even though we've got more quality in the position. He's a class act already, and could make the step up to international level imo, and Johnson should have gambled on the lad. Untill he's training with the full squad, it's tough for Johnson to asses just how good he is. He could have made an impact at the WC, but there's little chance of that happening now. Compare this to Toby Faletau who Gatland has been prepared to include in his squad at such a young age, or even Prydie who didn't have regional experience.

The prem sides are producing truck loads of talented young players, but I don't think Johnson's using them to their fullest yet. Whilst he shouldn't abandon experienced players, some simply aren't playing as well as the younger options, yet are getting the nod. However, Johnson is still doing a good job (lately anyway). He was handed a team that hadn't evolved much since 2003, change takes time, and he has started evolving the team slowly, it's possibly just come a little too late to mount as serious a chanrge on the WC as should be possible considering the player base. The tactic seems to be that the current squad will be kept much the same untill after the WC, and then youngsters will flood in to build for the 2015 tournament. But it sometimes only takes a matter of months for players to cement themselves within a team, Ashton and Foden proove that, as do the likes of Warburton, Bradley Davies and North for Wales.

Whilst you're right in saying that Walsh rugby lacks the depth that England have, that isn't true in all positions. The English backrow and centres don't really have massive depth. There's young players playing well in the prem who could improve the quality and improve the depth, but they're not getting the opportunity.

 

[gingergenius]

I hope I'm not the only England fan for whom the jury's still out on Johnson and whether he's doing a 'good job'.

He took over 3/4 years ago. He's had a whole RWC cycle to transform an ageing team into a good one (compare Robbie Deans or Lievremont). In that time, all Johnson's got to show for it is a home & away victory over Australia.

Furthermore, the reasons we got the wins over Australia were thanks to the likes of Cole, Lawes, Youngs, Ashton etc. But Ashton and Foden were only put in at the very end of the 6N. Shite like Deacon was preferred to Lawes until the Summer. Youngs didn't play till the summer either. And in spite of the overwhelming evidence that classy players who are on form in the premiership are good for England, Johnson remains incredibly... boring in his selections. See Banahan, Fourie, Hape... the impending selection of Worsley...

We've got a whole host of classy players aged 20-27 who could make up the core of the national side. A country like England, with our resources and depth, shouldn't have to wait from the 2003 RWC till the 2015 one (hopefully) to have a side well placed to win it. If Johnson had done his job properly this side would be heavily tipped to win the 6N and pick up a grand slam, depending on what the French are up to. As it is, I can't see us winning a grand slam at all.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I think Johnsons done averagely, hasn't arsed anything up and is slowly (very slowly) bringing in new players
However he should be taken out and shot for not including Robshaw - He had yet another cracking game for the Saxons, when is he going to stop being ignored?

Is it true that under EPS he's not allowed to make more than four changes per naming?
I saw on rugbynetwork (hence my scepticism) that he's only allowed to make four changes per EPS naming, but then allowed an overhaul after the WC

 

[dullonien]

I think Johnsons done averagely, hasn't arsed anything up and is slowly (very slowly) bringing in new players
However he should be taken out and shot for not including Robshaw - He had yet another cracking game for the Saxons, when is he going to stop being ignored?

Is it true that under EPS he's not allowed to make more than four changes per naming?
I saw on rugbynetwork (hence my scepticism) that he's only allowed to make four changes per EPS naming, but then allowed an overhaul after the WC

If that's true then that's unbelievable. I know the clubs want to know what players they will be loosing to international duty in advance, but some of the rules are so restrictive. Once the EPS is announced, isn't it true he can only call up aditional players if there's an injury, and called up players must come from the Saxson squad? It's all a little regimented and must make it very difficult for Johnson to forsee what players form etc. will be like when naming an EPS squad. Players returning from injury can't be added at a later date depending on form, so instead Johnson is forced to gamble of their form and stick them in the EPS, or leave them out in the cold without a hope of being involved if their form is acceptable.

I know it's still a step in the right direction after all the club v country rows that went ahead, but it all seems a little over the top with so many self emposed rules.

I'm still not sure about Johnson. He took an age to select players like Lawes, Foden, Ashton and Youngs and drop the likes of Borthwick. I thought that he'd possibly learned his lesson with how much the performances improved with those players coming in, but he seems to be reverting back to his cautious side this 6 nations, especially if he picks Worsley!

 

[gingergenius]

Johnson said a very interesting thing in his interview when responding to the whole Gatland - Hartley business. "It's how you respond to pressure, isn't it."

Of course, he was referring to Gatland's frequent attempts to divert media attention away from his oft-underachieving Wales side and onto someone else.

But time and time again, we see Johnson respond to pressure with his selection choices. A heavy defeat/ poor performance/ string of injuries always results in Johnson 'going back to basics'. If it's possible, experienced players with strong defence are called up. If there are tries leaked one week, then the centres become Noon or Erinle shaped.

This coming week he's got an England side that had its balloon burst by South Africa last time out, it's got a few key injuries, it's playing away in Cardiff, and it's against a side who always raise their game against us. There's a lot of pressure on him and England to put their value on paper into action and beat Wales. And with this pressure, we're now hearing about Worsley. It probably won't happen, but I wouldn't even be surprised if he started Wilkinson at 10 for this one.

 

[Peat]

To the best of my understanding Johnson gets to name a new EPS every year, and make five changes to it in January.

He can be infuriatingly conservative. That said, he has give a lot of chances to youth and the squad he hands on will be a lot better than the squad he was given.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Two Leinster scrumhalves stand out. Peter Du Toit will be the Ireland u20 scrumhalf this season and Luke McGrath is a brilliant prospect on the Ireland u18 team.

That sounds Afrikaans?

Julian Savea to be the next big winger and Tim Nanai-Williams to be the next best fullback come 2015.

What about Jane or Dagg for 2015? Certainly they are young enough. You people have too many options for the back 3.

 

[Peat]

To reiterate my Johnson point, the following is a team of players who have been capped by Martin Johnson (and are quite young)

1. Matt Mullan 2. Dylan Hartley 3. Dan Cole 4. Dave Attwood 5. Courtney Lawes 6. Chris Robshaw 7. Steffon Armitage 8. Jordan Crane 9. Joe Simpson 10. Ben Youngs 11. Matt Banahan 12. Dom Waldouck 13. Delon Armitage 14. Chris Ashton 15. Ben Foden

As you can see, I've cheated slightly in my definition of young and had to put Youngs in his youth level position to get a full 15...

The following is a team from the Observer, all EQP and under 23 at the start of the season. I've put in replacements in brackets where the name is already above

FB: Alex Goode, Saracens, 22
Wing: Noah Cato, Saracens, 22
Centre: Manu Tuigali, Leicester, 19
Centre: Billy Twelvetrees, Leicester, 22
Wing: George Lowe, Harlequins, 21
FH: Owen Farrell, Saracens, 19
SH: Ben Youngs, Leicester, 21 (Micky Young, Newcastle, 22)
Prop: Joe Marler, Harlequins, 20
Hooker: Tom Lindsay, Wasps, 23
Prop: Alex Corbisero, London Irish, 22
Lock: Courtney Lawes, Northampton, 21 (Tim Swinson, Newcastle, 23)
Lock: James Gaskell, Sale, 20
Flanker: Calum Clark, Northampton, 21
Flanker: Andy Saull, Saracens, 22
No 8: Carl Fearns, Sale, 21

Everyone in those two teams is playing regular Premiership rugby. Could probably manage a second team of U23 EQPs playing at least a fairly regular trade at this level without using a name I've already used... England has plenty of young talent playing top level rugby!

 

[Barbarian Horde]

O'Connor

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Could stick Cipriani at 10, though that would involve having a team where Cipriani was at 10