Springbok Squad EOYT 2018

[TRF_heineken]

meanwhile this:
https://rugby365.com/countries/south-africa/am-injury-opens-door-for-mapoe

Mapoe's inclusion makes it 4 specialist centers in the squad - seems highly unlikely that Serf or Steyn will feature on this tour now.

Not necessarily, Mapoe just joined the training squad, it doesn't mean he will be an automatic pick.

Rassie hasn't named any overseas based players in the training group so a lot can still change.

 

[unrated]

But why move PSDT to back to lock, when he's played his best rugby at flanker all season? I think with Lood back in the mix, it would be wise to keep PSDT at flanker and use the tall pieces of timber in RG Snyman and Lood De Jager in the lock positions, we will then have more lineout options and be able to be more competitive in the wetter conditions up north.

Well we cant, and im not going to assume that its because he played flank instesd of lock that made him play so well. I still think he can add tremendous value at lock and he can still do what he did at flank in open play.

Secondly JL is also tall and has been used as as a lineout option. In my opinion JL should not start when its between him and PSdt but when its between him and de Jager or Snyman then i believe he should get the nod.

 

[unrated]

But why move PSDT to back to lock, when he's played his best rugby at flanker all season? I think with Lood back in the mix, it would be wise to keep PSDT at flanker and use the tall pieces of timber in RG Snyman and Lood De Jager in the lock positions, we will then have more lineout options and be able to be more competitive in the wetter conditions up north.

Well we cant, and im not going to assume that its because he played flank instead of lock that made him play so well. I still think he can add tremendous value at lock and he can still do what he did at flank in open play.

Secondly JL is also tall and has been used as as a lineout option. In my opinion JL should not start when its between him and PSdt but when its between him and de Jager or Snyman then i believe he should get the nod.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Well we cant, and im not going to assume that its because he played flank instesd of lock that made him play so well. I still think he can add tremendous value at lock and he can still do what he did at flank in open play.

Secondly JL is also tall and has been used as as a lineout option. In my opinion JL should not start when its between him and PSdt but when its between him and de Jager or Snyman then i believe he should get the nod.

I hear you. I just think that PSDT has now showed that he's our new Danie Rossouw, and just like Danie, proves that having a guy that can play both Lock and Back Row, is a tremendous asset.

JLDP is not on form currently, so it's hard to see him get the call for this EOYT.

 

[SomeOke]

JLDP is not on form currently, so it's hard to see him get the call for this EOYT.

I don't think he's out of form so much that he's struggled with injury. He did some amazing things in the 700 or so minutes of SR he played but he hasn't quite been the same since June and has struggled with injury.
For me he has to be in the Bok set-up, he's one of the most promising young forwards we have, he's up their with Marx and Snyman as future greats.

 

[George Ford]

While all of the PSDT & JLDP discussion is a good selection poser to have, due to the Franco Mostert conundrum.. Why must the Springboks always have issues with players availability? As if we don't already create our own challenges internally (SA Rugby & Provincial Union cohesion, social cohesion with quota system) - least to mention injuries not of our own making. And now we have players having to show good faith to their clubs.

Why can't we just select our best players when we have to? I realize my plight might sound like a broken record. And sure this provides for the opportunity to give other players the chance to get more test experience, but in reality it actually stands to benefit the country of the club where the paymaster is. Now we have a scenario where Willie le Roux who plays for Wasps - might/will not play for the Boks against England, but his club teammate - Elliot Daly - will most definitely play against the Boks.

I really want the Boks to give England & France a good hiding, if not without the players plying their trade in those respective countries.

 

[TRF_heineken]

While all of the PSDT & JLDP discussion is a good selection poser to have, due to the Franco Mostert conundrum.. Why must the Springboks always have issues with players availability? As if we don't already create our own challenges internally (SA Rugby & Provincial Union cohesion, social cohesion with quota system) - least to mention injuries not of our own making. And now we have players having to show good faith to their clubs.

Why can't we just select our best players when we have to? I realize my plight might sound like a broken record. And sure this provides for the opportunity to give other players the chance to get more test experience, but in reality it actually stands to benefit the country of the club where the paymaster is. Now we have a scenario where Willie le Roux who plays for Wasps - might/will not play for the Boks against England, but his club teammate - Elliot Daly - will most definitely play against the Boks.

I really want the Boks to give England & France a good hiding, if not without the players plying their trade in those respective countries.

It's all about money in professional sports.

But I think we might see a change in attitude from the players, now that SARU will be amending their contracts which will give them a bigger payout depending on playing for the Springboks, instead of a salary.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Springbok squad:

Forwards: Schalk Brits, Lood de Jager, Pieter-Steph du Toit, Thomas du Toit, Eben Etzebeth, Steven Kitshoff, Vincent Koch, Siya Kolisi (c), Francois Louw, Wilco Louw, Frans Malherbe, Malcolm Marx, Bongi Mbonambi, Franco Mostert, Sikhumbuzo Notshe, Trevor Nyakane, JD Schickerling, RG Snyman, Duane Vermeulen, Warren Whiteley

Backs: Gio Aplon, Damian de Allende, Aphiwe Dyantyi, André Esterhuizen, Elton Jantjies, Cheslin Kolbe, Jesse Kriel, Wille le Roux, Ruhan Nel, Sbu Nkosi, Embrose Papier, Sergeal Petersen, Handré Pollard, Louis Schreuder, Ivan van Zyl, Damian Willemse

 

[TRF_heineken]

Springbok squad:

Forwards: Schalk Brits, Lood de Jager, Pieter-Steph du Toit, Thomas du Toit, Eben Etzebeth, Steven Kitshoff, Vincent Koch, Siya Kolisi (c), Francois Louw, Wilco Louw, Frans Malherbe, Malcolm Marx, Bongi Mbonambi, Franco Mostert, Sikhumbuzo Notshe, Trevor Nyakane, JD Schickerling, RG Snyman, Duane Vermeulen, Warren Whiteley

Backs: Gio Aplon, Damian de Allende, Aphiwe Dyantyi, André Esterhuizen, Elton Jantjies, Cheslin Kolbe, Jesse Kriel, Wille le Roux, Ruhan Nel, Sbu Nkosi, Embrose Papier, Sergeal Petersen, Handré Pollard, Louis Schreuder, Ivan van Zyl, Damian Willemse

I'm overall happy-ish with the squad. Really happy for Sergeal Petersen to get the nod, I'd pick him ahead of Nkosi at the moment.

Don't know why Akker wasn't picked, and I also don't know why Shickerling is in the squad.

I have a suspicion that some guys may get a call-up this week, as it seemed that some guys left the field this weekend in a bit of pain.

 

[unrated]

TBH i was rather disappointing with the selection.

Firstly i would like to acknowledge that there are a number of players in the Bok squad who im happy with, Our pack will still be very strong and i understand the forced selections in certain positions as with Faf and Willie not available. So where we could there was some consistency in selections which is a good thing.

But im disappointed with the omission of certain players from the squad which might have overruled the positive aspects for me.

I thought atleast one of the du Preez twins should have been included
Akker should have been in.

Schreuder should not have been included , he is not even the best Sharks scrummie, Jeezus if you really have the need to go local then go for Cameron Wright instead or heck, why not Shaun Venter or Ivan van Zyl. My preferred choice would have been Reinach, so this to me is a double whammy as is the case with many of the selections, Not only is the player (that i feel) should have been included not there but the people he chose is not (IMO) the best backup for that matter.

Same with Aplon... We have fullbacks for backup and we have our utility backs, Pick Serfontein instead, not Aplon. Serfontein is a better player without a doubt... but you know what ive been saying about the french clubs and not releasing players, so that might have played a role.

It was sad that Marcell Coetzee was overlooked, he has just returned from injury though so for this one i will forgive Rassie.

The following quotes Erasmus gave does give me hope though
"I'm following Jan closely, I'm following Cobus Reinach closely ... everybody.

"Frans Steyn, Bismarck, Pat Lambie back in February. I'm in contact with those guys and if they're good enough, we will consider them."

Its good that he mentioned these guys by name. But its still odd that they arent even being tested out. Even for the Italy test.

Either way though i still think our first XV squad will be good enough to have a successful tour. In no way am i calling for the inclusion of the above mentioned players ahead of the current starting XV, instead im making the case for their inclusion in the squad at the very least, so that Rassie can judge them next to their South African peers on the same field under the same conditions in order to assess their form, talent and commitment to the cause in comparison with the current crop of players.

 

[TRF_heineken]

TBH i was rather disappointing with the selection.

Firstly i would like to acknowledge that there are a number of players in the Bok squad who im happy with, Our pack will still be very strong and i understand the forced selections in certain positions as with Faf and Willie not available. So where we could there was some consistency in selections which is a good thing.

But im disappointed with the omission of certain players from the squad which might have overruled the positive aspects for me.

I thought atleast one of the du Preez twins should have been included
Akker should have been in.

Schreuder should not have been included , he is not even the best Sharks scrummie, Jeezus if you really have the need to go local then go for Cameron Wright instead or heck, why not Shaun Venter or Ivan van Zyl. My preferred choice would have been Reinach, so this to me is a double whammy as is the case with many of the selections, Not only is the player (that i feel) should have been included not there but the people he chose is not (IMO) the best backup for that matter.

Same with Aplon... We have fullbacks for backup and we have our utility backs, Pick Serfontein instead, not Aplon. Serfontein is a better player without a doubt... but you know what ive been saying about the french clubs and not releasing players, so that might have played a role.

It was sad that Marcell Coetzee was overlooked, he has just returned from injury though so for this one i will forgive Rassie.

The following quotes Erasmus gave does give me hope though
"I'm following Jan closely, I'm following Cobus Reinach closely ... everybody.

"Frans Steyn, Bismarck, Pat Lambie back in February. I'm in contact with those guys and if they're good enough, we will consider them."

Its good that he mentioned these guys by name. But its still odd that they arent even being tested out. Even for the Italy test.

Either way though i still think our first XV squad will be good enough to have a successful tour. In no way am i calling for the inclusion of the above mentioned players ahead of the current starting XV, instead im making the case for their inclusion in the squad at the very least, so that Rassie can judge them next to their South African peers on the same field under the same conditions in order to assess their form, talent and commitment to the cause in comparison with the current crop of players.

Yeah, I understand your frustration, but then again Rassie will never be able to please everyone, especially with the whole transformation thing being looked at regularly. I saw there was an article again about it over the weekend, and that Rassie is slowly progressing towards the target of 50% required for next year's world cup.

So that is why a guy like Notshe is selected ahead of the Du Preez brothers, and to an extent a guy like Aplon is picked ahead of a guy like Serfontein/Steyn, especially with both Am and Mapoe not making the cut.

 

[George Ford]

Springbok squad:

Forwards: Schalk Brits, Lood de Jager, Pieter-Steph du Toit, Thomas du Toit, Eben Etzebeth, Steven Kitshoff, Vincent Koch, Siya Kolisi (c), Francois Louw, Wilco Louw, Frans Malherbe, Malcolm Marx, Bongi Mbonambi, Franco Mostert, Sikhumbuzo Notshe, Trevor Nyakane, JD Schickerling, RG Snyman, Duane Vermeulen, Warren Whiteley

Backs: Gio Aplon, Damian de Allende, Aphiwe Dyantyi, André Esterhuizen, Elton Jantjies, Cheslin Kolbe, Jesse Kriel, Wille le Roux, Ruhan Nel, Sbu Nkosi, Embrose Papier, Sergeal Petersen, Handré Pollard, Louis Schreuder, Ivan van Zyl, Damian Willemse

Read this way

FORWARDS (20)
Looseheads - Steven Kitshoff, Thomas du Toit, Trevor Nyakane (3)
Hookers - Malcolm Marx, Bongi Mbonambi, Schalk Brits (3)
Tightheads - Frans Malherbe, Vincent Koch, Wilco Louw (3)
Locks - Eben Etzebeth, Franco Mostert, RG Snyman, Lood De Jager, JD Schickerling (5)
Openside Flanks - Siya Kolisi, Francois Louw, (2)
Blindside Flanks - Pieter-Steph du Toit, Duane Vermeulen, (2)
Eighthmen - Warren Whiteley, Sikhumbuzo Notshe (2)

BACKS (16)
Scrumhalves - Embrose Papier, Ivan Van Zyl, Louis Schreuder (3)
Flyhalves - Handre Pollard, Elton Jantjies (2)
Left-Wing - Aphiwe Dyantyi (1)
Inside Centers - Damian de Allende, Andre Esterhuizen (2)
Outside Centers - Jesse Kriel, Ruhan Nel (2)
Right-Wings - Cheslin Kolbe, Sbu Nkosi, Sergeal Petersen (3)
Fullbacks - Willie le Roux, Damian Willemse , Gio Aplon (3)

The one thing this Bok-squad's got going is continuity in selection, in spite of some players squibbles with their clubs. The 1st mentioned highlighted names are the players who started the last test (with the exception of Papier who replaced de Klerk), and while many may reservations about who made the squad and who didn't, it is clear that these fringe players (would) rather have squad roles to play, at least for now - other than starting a test and that the management team has set their minds on a matchday 23 going forward, possibly for every test leading up to the World Cup.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Faf called up
Would love to be a fly on the wall in Steve Diamonds office RN

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Is Durhan Van der Merwe on south africas radar?
The guy is IMO the form wing in Europe, although he is Scottish qualified next year so imagine he will play for them.

But the guy is a tank.


Playing even better this season.

 

[User1245]

Is Durhan Van der Merwe on south africas radar?
The guy is IMO the form wing in Europe, although he is Scottish qualified next year so imagine he will play for them.

But the guy is a tank.


Playing even better this season.

Yeah he looks the business for sure. Great athlete. He has his eye set on Scotland:

"I have always wanted to play international rugby but with all the stuff going on in South Africa I just decided that I was never going to get the opportunity to play there."

Read more at: https://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugb...an-der-merwe-chasing-scotland-dream-1-4632684

Being a specialist wing who is white, he'd never play for the Boks regularly. They're an extinct species.
I doubt he would play for the Boks even if they called him up.

They're pronouncing his name incorrectly BTW. It's Du-hAAN not Du-han.

 

[saulan]

Yeah he looks the business for sure. Great athlete. He has his eye set on Scotland

I don't think he realises that he has already ruled himself out of contention for this, or he knows but is hoping they let it slide.

He played for SA U20 in the 2014 u20 championship, when the U20 side was our designated second team (this changed last year I believe, but from what I've seen everyone captured prior to 2018 rule change is still captured). So he can only play for South Africa internationally for the rest of his career.

Will be interesting to see if he tries to play for another team and if SARU would protest it. Given their concerns over players heading overseas, I think an objection would be likely.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I don't think he realises that he has already ruled himself out of contention for this, or he knows but is hoping they let it slide.

He played for SA U20 in the 2014 u20 championship, when the U20 side was our designated second team (this changed last year I believe, but from what I've seen everyone captured prior to 2018 rule change is still captured). So he can only play for South Africa internationally for the rest of his career.

Will be interesting to see if he tries to play for another team and if SARU would protest it. Given their concerns over players heading overseas, I think an objection would be likely.

But he didn't play against anyone else capture team in the U20's so it doesn't count

 

[unrated]

https://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/saru-attempts-to-keep-junior-stars-in-sa-20160411

No thats not how i understand it. If they played for the u20 team anywhere after 2012 then they are not allowed to play for another country, nowhere can i see the fine print that @Tigs Man refers to which says they had to play against another countries capture team for it to be legit.

But even if that was the case then we can say he did play against the european u20 side representing South Africa. I mean if the europeans has their capture teams as something else than their u20 sides: lets say the saxons for england then we can say with certainty that this ammendmend made by SARU was a dumb move as we (sa under 20 side) would never play agains them (A national b side such as the saxons or maori) thus will subsequently never be able to tie down these players.

So i dont think it depends on what the other countries are doing for they catchment teams (wheter its a national b team or an under 20 team) but for us the u20s is the designated team regardless of what the other countries are doing.

fact is if he played for our u20s then he wont be able to represent any other nation even with the new 5 year rule. Legally he cant play for any other nation now.

"Shortly after joining, he was a late call-up to the South Africa Under-20 squad that participated at the 2014 IRB Junior World Championship in New Zealand,[17] replacing Rohan Janse van Rensburg who picked up an injury in South Africa's 61–5 victory against Scotland in the opening round in Pool C.[18] Van der Merwe was an unused replacement for their 33–24 victory over hosts New Zealand in their second match,[19] but started their final pool match, a 21–8 victory over Samoa[20] to help the team finish top of their pool to progress to the semi-finals. He didn't feature in their 32–25 win over New Zealand at that stage,[21] but was named on the bench for the final against England and came on as a replacement in the second half, with South Africa losing 20–21[22] to finish as runners-up in the competition. " from wikipedia

so we played the baby blacks that year with Duhan in our team, and the baby blacks are designated as New Zealands second team.
https://pulse-static-files.s3.amazo...2014-2015-2016-2017-and-2018-Web-version_.pdf


But i dont think he will ever get called up for South Africa. not because i dont think he is good enough but litterally the coach will get fired if they start playing white wingers as thats traditionally the only spots that the black players have played in to date, the governement expects progress meaning not only do they just want the wings to be black players but multiple other positions too, anything else would be considered regression and the coaches will face national fury if they select a white winger, so i just cant see that happening unless he converts to a centre, fullback or flyhalve.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

You are mistaken and the article is wrong.
It has to be played against another teams capture team.
England Saxons are the capture team (Hence why Haley is trying to play for Ireland despite playing for the U20's and Saxons)
Scotland A is also their capture team hence why Gary Graham could flip flop.
Samoa capture team is the Samoan A's.
New Zealand capture team is the Junior AB's.

In fact only France and Wales have their U20's as capture teams in europe back then.

Pierre Schoemand who was also in that U20's team is being eyed by Scotland.


The fact is he can play for Scotland after the 5 years.

https://www.rugbyworld.com/news/rugbys-international-eligibility-rules-90995
A rule of thumb is that players will not be captured unless they are playing against a capturing team.

 

[unrated]

You are mistaken and the article is wrong.
It has to be played against another teams capture team.
England Saxons are the capture team (Hence why Haley is trying to play for Ireland despite playing for the U20's and Saxons)
Scotland A is also their capture team hence why Gary Graham could flip flop.
Samoa capture team is the Samoan A's.
New Zealand capture team is the Junior AB's.

In fact only France and Wales have their U20's as capture teams in europe back then.

Pierre Schoemand who was also in that U20's team is being eyed by Scotland.


The fact is he can play for Scotland after the 5 years.

https://www.rugbyworld.com/news/rugbys-international-eligibility-rules-90995
A rule of thumb is that players will not be captured unless they are playing against a capturing team.

Please refer to this thread: https://www.therugbyforum.com/threads/saru-attempts-to-keep-junior-stars-in-sa.37509/


Regulation 8.2
"A Player who has played for the senior fifteen-a-side National Representative Team or the next senior fifteen-a-side National Representative Team or the senior National Representative Sevens Team of a Union is not eligible to play for the senior fifteen-a-side National Representative Team or the next senior fifteen-a-side National Representative Team or the senior National Representative Sevens Team of another Union."

Specifically look at this point @saulan made
"You didn't look at 8.3 b,c and d. Specifically 8.3(d) says:

"(d) He is selected to represent the Under 20s National Representative Team of a Union which has been pre-designated as that Union's next senior fifteen-a-side National Representative Team and the Player is part of the team which participates in an International Match as part of the World Rugby Junior World Championships, World Rugby Junior World Rugby Trophy or the Six Nations U20 Championship and is present at the Match played by that Team either as a replacement, substitute or playing member of that Team and has, at the time of the Match, reached the age of majority"

So no matter what, the player won't be eligible anywhere else."