Spectators lose interest in Super Rugby

Discussion in 'Super Rugby' started by saulan, Jul 4, 2016.

  1. Tigs Man

    Tigs Man Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2013
    Messages:
    17,187
    Location:
    LimerDick
    Country Flag:

    Puerto Rico

    Club or Nation:

    Wigan

    Can't see NA happening not with Top 14 and Pro 12 happening from a logistics POV it makes more sense to go for those than Super rugby.

    Also would the tier 2 teams be able to keep financially?
     
  2. Forum Ad Advertisement

  3. Cruz_del_Sur

    Cruz_del_Sur First XV

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2011
    Messages:
    2,718
    Location:
    Yurop
    Country Flag:

    Argentina

    Club or Nation:

    CASI

    I'm clearly biased here but if you are going to drop from 18 to 16/15 teams, based on performance, despite an appalling season, we are not in the bottom 3.
    Give us another season and let's have this conversation again.
     
  4. Tigs Man

    Tigs Man Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2013
    Messages:
    17,187
    Location:
    LimerDick
    Country Flag:

    Puerto Rico

    Club or Nation:

    Wigan

    Yeh Jags have a talented squad they just pushed SA they do need better coaching.

    But honestly i can see them doing very well second time around now that they know what to expect.
     
  5. Brigantine

    Brigantine Bench Player

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2016
    Messages:
    769
    Location:
    Auckland
    Country Flag:

    New Zealand

    Club or Nation:

    Japan

    Drop the Force and Rebels, and move the Blues into the Australian conference. Fixed.

    But yeah the way I read it they're looking to go back to a simple worldwide round robin format. Main question is whether they'll start in 2017 or 2018.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2016
  6. comprar

    comprar Academy Player

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2016
    Messages:
    44
    Country Flag:

    Belgium

    Club or Nation:

    Ayr

    Found the Aus Average in 2006 which was total 624,443/ average 24,017.
     
  7. Car

    Car Academy Player

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2015
    Messages:
    443
    Location:
    Germany
    Country Flag:

    Germany

    Club or Nation:

    Perpignan

  8. The Jones Boy

    The Jones Boy First XV

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2013
    Messages:
    2,753
    Location:
    Currently residing in London, UK
    Country Flag:

    New Zealand

    Club or Nation:

    New Zealand

    Drop one Aussie franchise and one saffer franchise.
    That will let the talent level creep up in their conferences.
    Maybe the Force and the Kings.
    The Kings are woeful and Western Aussie is all about Aussie rules, the second game out there is really league so the Force won't be missed and their top players will easily be housed in the other franchises
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2017
  9. Gena_ZA

    Gena_ZA First XV

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2010
    Messages:
    2,274
    Location:
    Centurion, South Africa
    Country Flag:

    South Africa

    Club or Nation:

    Stormers

    I would go as far as say drop 2 ZA teams or have them merge with bigger unions
    Kings with Sharks and Cheetahs with Lions
     
  10. Bruce_ma_goose

    Bruce_ma_goose First XV

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2016
    Messages:
    3,835
    Country Flag:

    Scotland

    Club or Nation:

    Italy

    It's an entirely valid argument, but completely simplistic. It only makes sense if you are happy with less TV money and most of your top players playing in France and England as the wage differences continues to widen sharply and hoping that fans will turn out to watch international reserves being the "star" players in the league. To suggest you cut the number of teams, scrap the conference system and things will be just like the gold old days is not realistic. That is not one of the options in the real world as proven by Pro12 in Europe exploring exactly the same options out of the understanding that they too will also lose their best players and devalue the league if they don't expand the territories they cover and gain more TV money.

    The alternative is Super Rugby moving in the next 10 years towards incorporating an Asian Conference and an Americas Conference in the hope of getting enough TV money to retain the top talent. The problem is while that destination might be much better than the current situation, getting there over the next 10 years means accepting a less competitive league as it transitions and the talent in Asia and the Americas gradually improves.
     
  11. themole25

    themole25 First XV

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2015
    Messages:
    2,632
    Location:
    Sad Meow
    Club or Nation:

    La Rochelle

    can they cut teams or rearrange teams right now? that would most likely violate the terms of their tv deal

    pulling teams would result in less tv money and the sports tv bubble is about to burst so their next contract they sign is probably not going to be much better than the one they have now... two contracts from now it will probably be less

    expanding the territory of the league will be the only way to increase league revenue... and with players already leaving for more money i couldn't imagine what would happen if tv revenue drops or stagnates compared to revenue in other countries
     
  12. Car

    Car Academy Player

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2015
    Messages:
    443
    Location:
    Germany
    Country Flag:

    Germany

    Club or Nation:

    Perpignan

    It's also too simplistic to assume that more teams will automatically lead to more TV money as interest already went down and might go down further if the level is going down further/ the competition is becoming more lopsided due to teams that actually aren't good enough. More matches can also put people off. The NFL is doing much better than the NBA even though (or maybe because?) it has fewer games and isn't as easy to get into (both actively and passively). You have to watch out you don't end up devaluing your competition by playing too much against teams no-one cares about.
     
  13. Cruz_del_Sur

    Cruz_del_Sur First XV

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2011
    Messages:
    2,718
    Location:
    Yurop
    Country Flag:

    Argentina

    Club or Nation:

    CASI

    It is very complicated but whether it is necessary or not is quite a judgement call from rugbypass. As Bruce mentioned, TV money is an issue and the conferences offer a complicated but reasonable solution. Sure, one NZ team didn't qualify to the playoffs though they probably should had the system been different, but it was one out of 5. That's good enough in my book. The entire idea is to have at least one member from each conference in the finals, and that is driven by tv viewership.

    An all vs all league would also increase the travelling, which is already quite high for some teams. Jaguares had to play at home in Arg, in RSA, against the Sunwolves away and against NZ away. That's a plethora of time zones. Logistically it is a nightmare.

    I am on Europe/RSA time zone. Jaguares games were either at 7am (on a sat), 3-5 pm, or at 1am on sundays. I repeat, it is a logistical nightmare. There is no easy way to schedule this. Something's gotta give.
     
  14. Bruce_ma_goose

    Bruce_ma_goose First XV

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2016
    Messages:
    3,835
    Country Flag:

    Scotland

    Club or Nation:

    Italy

    All totally valid Car. But Japan alone has a population twice that of the whole SANZAR and is far more affluent per head of population. It is hypothetical, but if the sport really catches on there as a result of RWC and SuperRugby then I can't imagine a scenario where a SuperRugby with Japan in it gets a worse TV deal than a SANZAR only option. I can't imagine a scenario where a SANZAR only Super Rugby (without Japan) didn't lose a large chunk of its top international players to the new TV deals of France and England.

    The other consideration that Super Rugby and Pro12 have disasterously failed to consider, using the example of the NFL expansion in the 1990s, is for existing teams to supply a decent player each from their squad to the new franchises to ensure they are remotely competitive in their first years (obviously there might have to be financial incentives to the player for them to make the move). I am sure there'd be other options to make the league more competitive during this transitional period but both leagues just seem to think expanding the cheapest way possible is the way to go and to hell with the level of competition.

    Apologies if I appear frustrated. There are comparisons for me with global political developments where some believe that we can turn the clocks back to 1970s and create all sorts of new jobs (that in reality have been taken over by robots and provide far superior and more affordable craftmanship than any human could for anything approaching the same price). The past is no more attainable in Super Rugby than it is economically.
     
  15. Car

    Car Academy Player

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2015
    Messages:
    443
    Location:
    Germany
    Country Flag:

    Germany

    Club or Nation:

    Perpignan

    I'm not against Japan and especially Argentina. They had to earn it and the doors to SANZAR were closed for Argentina for far too long. But you just should not only look at the money, but also take the current level and the current market size into consideration. That goes more towards the likes of the US or also Germany. In ice hockey, the regularly extended the number of countries at the A World Championship when we would have been relegated without it. They feared we might slip away without it. What happened? The sport can only dream of the popularity it used to have in the 80s and 90s. In handball, they gave us a wild card for the 2015 World Championship, only to fail to reach a TV deal for this one. There were free streams on Youtube, but despite a lot of media coverage about the whole disaster surrounding it (I'm still not sure what really happened), the ratings were rather poor. In both cases, even fans here thought the preferential treatment was just ridiculous.

    You just can't ignore on-pitch performances and an affluent, big country might not transform into good TV deals. The German sports market is notoriously difficult for non-German football. Yes, that's partly off topic (well, who knows with Super Rugby?), but if the level is too bad and people feel it's not about sports any more, that could backfire.

    I wonder if it wouldn't make more sense in the long run to move the Sunwolves to another conference? Australia might be better since the level is weaker.
     
  16. themole25

    themole25 First XV

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2015
    Messages:
    2,632
    Location:
    Sad Meow
    Club or Nation:

    La Rochelle

    just did some quick google maps stuff and argentina and japan being in the africa conference doesn't really make much sense

    jaguares with new zealand teams and sunwolves with australia makes more sense in terms of flights

    unless they go to a single round robin the conference system is here to to stay (honestly it's one of the easiest things to figure out)
     
  17. The Jones Boy

    The Jones Boy First XV

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2013
    Messages:
    2,753
    Location:
    Currently residing in London, UK
    Country Flag:

    New Zealand

    Club or Nation:

    New Zealand

    One Aussie team out.
    One Saffer team out.
    The quality in the other teams will rise a little and make them more competitive. The bar will be raised for the entry level standard.
    Perfection.
     
  18. smartcooky

    smartcooky Referee Coach and Advisor

    Joined:
    May 25, 2007
    Messages:
    5,730
    Country Flag:

    New Zealand

    Club or Nation:

    Tasman

    I pretty much agree with all of this.

    Fans need to accept that the idea of "everyone plays everyone else" is gone for good. While this might be fine in places like England where the land area covered by the 12 Aviva Premiership teams can be covered with a large blanket (for Kiwi fans, the entire Aviva Premiership takes place in a land area less than the size of the South Island; for Aussie fans, half the size of Victoria). Travel is a breeze... you can drive/bus/train from place to place in just a few hours.

    Competitions with formats using conferences/pools/groups are the way of the future. I think something like cross between the European Rugby Champions Cup and NFL with regional conferences is the way things will go on the future.. for example

    New Zealand Conference (5 teams + Jaguares)
    Australian Conference (5 teams + Sunwolves)
    African Conference (6 teams)

    Every team plays every other team within their own conference home and away (8 matches)
    Every team plays four teams from each other conference, 2 home and 2 away (8 matches)
    Quarter finals. Top two teams in each conference qualify (6 teams) plus the two best placed 3rd placed teams. Seeding by table points.
     
  19. themole25

    themole25 First XV

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2015
    Messages:
    2,632
    Location:
    Sad Meow
    Club or Nation:

    La Rochelle

    i thought i was crazy and the only one to notice how out of place jaguares and sunwolves are in the african conference

    new zealand is as easy a flight as south africa is for argentina and australia is much closer to japan than south africa

    it would also make the scheduling much easier and qualification for playoffs would be simpler
     
  20. marianodan

    marianodan Academy Player

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2011
    Messages:
    289
    Country Flag:

    Argentina

    Club or Nation:

    Argentina

    I doesn't make sense for Japan but for us it definitely does. Time Zone difference with SA is 4 hours, with NZ is 16...
     
  21. themole25

    themole25 First XV

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2015
    Messages:
    2,632
    Location:
    Sad Meow
    Club or Nation:

    La Rochelle

    japan to cape town is 20 horu flight while japan to sydney is 10 hours
     
Enjoyed this thread? Register to post your reply - click here!

Share This Page

-->