South African Youth Player Drain

[TRF_heineken]

A proper Currie Cup would be amazing. It might just be a tad awkward to have our sides in a tournament that starts with the letter 'E' for Europe. I can just hear the French club owners moan because of having to travel to SA.

On this note Mehrtens is saying the same thing:
https://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/Sup...ins-adamant-drop-sa-from-super-rugby-20191125

Highlights of his argument being its all about time zones and he sees NZ & Aus venturing into Asia, SA linking up with Dubai... IDK, if Europe would have us I think Strength vs Strength could be amazing. Its just the travel factor.

Argentina to set up shop with the rest of the Americas.

Can't say I disagree with him. Only argument other than travel I see against it is traditionally rugby in SA in high summer is murder BUT next year will already see SR start off start of February which is our hottest month so that old argument is moot.

A crazy thought is for SA businessmen to set up clubs in the Netherlands and be based there like Argentina's Jaguars were based in Stellenbosch in SA a few years before joining SR and playing in our Vodacom Cup. Currently French and English clubs are making "partnerships" with SA sides but to their benefit, effectively making us feeder teams. If our players are playing in Europe in any case I'd rather it be on our terms.

2 things.

1. 10 team Currie Cup:
Who will that be exactly? Blue Bulls, Golden Lions, WP, Natal Sharks, Free State Cheetahs, Griquas, Pumas, Boland, Southern Kings (EP), Leopards? Or will we add the Jaguares/Pampas? For me, expanding the Premier division of the Currie Cup by that many teams, would not be the solution. I would rather have it limited to 8 with home and away legs for each team. The first division is just not up there to have more of their teams promoted to the premier division.

2. SA leaving Super Rugby
That's all fine and dandy, let's take our money with us and leave. I guess NZ and Australia have more than enough money to start this project all on their own. I wonder how they'll do it especially since it seems like FOX in Oz is now also not going to be the main broadcaster of Rugby union in Australia anymore. How long until the wells dry up??? We were their golden egg when it comes to money. And our location is one of the main reasons why the money is flowing in.

Do they expect Japan to be the main contributor? Have they made a study on the amount of viewership they will lose should this happen??? Money talks and it's the worst time to have this type of discussion. Especially after the World Cup. The team they want to drop is the World Champions, and after the World Cup, the emerging markets would rather look at the World Champs than teams that wasn't in the final or even the Semi-final.

I think SA is in the best position possible right now...

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

If we need to get into detail I agree 8 is the number for us. At least for now. Even then we'll have 4 or 5 stronger teams and 3 or 4 poor cousins. We could serve up 8 quality sides IF the players were centrally contracted, semi-drafted past your core group like in NZ and IF we could get our players playing in SA and then the ECC. All big IFs.

But if the contracting can get sorted I feel Europe is a better fit for us long term. We aren't married to SANZAAR. Long term this might be best for Argentina as well. Get more teams even if they aren't all on the Jaguars' level starting off.

NZ and Aus have been wanting to go trans-tasman for a while now. At least a large contingent have. I just wonder whether Asia is a market for them. Whether japan wouldn't rather want to go it alone just as us and Europe the geographic considerations are a tad awkward. Maybe Aus finally gets a domestiv league up and NZ/Aus/Jap do a Heineken CUp type setup.

 

[TRF_heineken]

If we need to get into detail I agree 8 is the number for us. At least for now. Even then we'll have 4 or 5 stronger teams and 3 or 4 poor cousins. We could serve up 8 quality sides IF the players were centrally contracted, semi-drafted past your core group like in NZ and IF we could get our players playing in SA and then the ECC. All big IFs.

Yeah, we need to get our house in order first. And for the first time in a very long time, I'm very optimistic on what's to come.

But if the contracting can get sorted I feel Europe is a better fit for us long term. We aren't married to SANZAAR. Long term this might be best for Argentina as well. Get more teams even if they aren't all on the Jaguars' level starting off.

We kinda are actually. But I get your point. For me the geographical issue is just a minor issue, which many nay-sayers are using to create a basis. They forget about so many other issues.

If I was New Zealand, I'd be very concerned about what's going on in Australia with regard to Rugby Union. They are in disarray, and have been for a while, and although it seems like they are getting things in order, would it be a sustainable model to keep them afloat??

Plus I don't see us dropping Super Rugby but still play Rugby Championship. There is no way there'll be an agreement where we ditch the domestic league but stay in the international league. They go together. If we leave SANZAAR, our only hope is to join the 6 Nations.

NZ and Aus have been wanting to go trans-tasman for a while now. At least a large contingent have. I just wonder whether Asia is a market for them. Whether japan wouldn't rather want to go it alone just as us and Europe the geographic considerations are a tad awkward. Maybe Aus finally gets a domestiv league up and NZ/Aus/Jap do a Heineken CUp type setup.

Australia is trying to run 2 domestic leagues simultaneously. With Rapid Rugby kicking off with the Western Force as one of the flagship teams, they are competing against themselves, and not in the good way. They are essentially splitting themselves up and in doing so, they are causing more division and less unity.

The other question is what will Japan's opinion be if SA is not part of the agreement?? Would they still want to partner up? To me, it seems like Japan would be more like a substitute in place of SA for NZ and Aus. Japan will surely be used in same manner too, providing the more viewers and broadcasting, but splitting the profits equally between them, NZ and Aus.

 

[mdaclarke]

2 things.

1. 10 team Currie Cup:
Who will that be exactly? Blue Bulls, Golden Lions, WP, Natal Sharks, Free State Cheetahs, Griquas, Pumas, Boland, Southern Kings (EP), Leopards? Or will we add the Jaguares/Pampas? For me, expanding the Premier division of the Currie Cup by that many teams, would not be the solution. I would rather have it limited to 8 with home and away legs for each team. The first division is just not up there to have more of their teams promoted to the premier division.

2. SA leaving Super Rugby
That's all fine and dandy, let's take our money with us and leave. I guess NZ and Australia have more than enough money to start this project all on their own. I wonder how they'll do it especially since it seems like FOX in Oz is now also not going to be the main broadcaster of Rugby union in Australia anymore. How long until the wells dry up??? We were their golden egg when it comes to money. And our location is one of the main reasons why the money is flowing in.

Do they expect Japan to be the main contributor? Have they made a study on the amount of viewership they will lose should this happen??? Money talks and it's the worst time to have this type of discussion. Especially after the World Cup. The team they want to drop is the World Champions, and after the World Cup, the emerging markets would rather look at the World Champs than teams that wasn't in the final or even the Semi-final.

I think SA is in the best position possible right now...

Agree 100%, which is why Super Rugby will be around for a lot longer than people think as the Australians and the New Zealanders need South African TV money and access to the Time Zone for their teams

 

[JohnKA]

I Love Super Rugby. I would like 2 more South African teams (not Super Rugby ones) join the Pro 14 and give them the ability to qualify for the European Competiitons

I also like super rugby but I would really not mind if our super rugby teams rather join the Pro 14

 

[TRF_heineken]

I also like super rugby but I would really not mind if our super rugby teams rather join the Pro 14

I would mind. There's a history we need to preserve and there is a good bond between the players and teams and nations. Australia, NZ and SA have each other's backs when it comes to votes where there are things that might affect the SH teams. Plus we vote for each other when we vote for each other when we want to host the WC (not like Japan).

We shouldn't abandon our friends in the South.

 

[JohnKA]

We can make new friends in the North ! and the North remembers XD

I would mind. There's a history we need to preserve and there is a good bond between the players and teams and nations. Australia, NZ and SA have each other's backs when it comes to votes where there are things that might affect the SH teams. Plus we vote for each other when we vote for each other when we want to host the WC (not like Japan).

We shouldn't abandon our friends in the South.

 

[TRF_heineken]

We can make new friends in the North ! and the North remembers XD

Haha, this is not Westeros. Plus if you want to compare it to GOT, the South was much safer...

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I would mind. There's a history we need to preserve and there is a good bond between the players and teams and nations. Australia, NZ and SA have each other's backs when it comes to votes where there are things that might affect the SH teams. Plus we vote for each other when we vote for each other when we want to host the WC (not like Japan).

We shouldn't abandon our friends in the South.

I don't know hey. I can give you a couple of examples where NZ and Aus have had everything but our best interests at heart.

 

[unrated]

Let's all just take a moment to remember how Rugby Africa voted for France to host the World Cup. So yes voting allegiances only last as long as it suits them or the French infiltrates your board. I'm hoping to be a romantic though and would favour staying part of Sanzaar, considering we won the World Cup . That must mean the competition is helping us somehow? The north just lost another wc... I would keep the idea of moving north open but only after a prolonged drought period of no success on the world stage. At that point we say this is not working for us anymore and we go north. Until then we stay in the literal champions cup in the SH

 

[TRF_Olyy]

The FRU aren't the French clubs.

Also you seem to be labouring up the delusion that the EPCR are clamouring after the SA franchises. Maybe the pro14 are but there's not even been whispers, from anywhere serious, of including Kings/Cheetahs in Europe so thinking the rest of the franchises would just waltz into the champions cup is wishful thinking at best.

 

[JohnKA]

True, but the Kings and Cheetahs is the weakest of our top teams if we would get our teams such as the sharks bulls and stormers in the pro14 the we can mount a serious challenge for the pro14 ***le, win the ***le a few times and the idea of including us in the champions cup will start to pop up more and just to make it clear I do not underestimate the teams in the pro14 our top teams will just perform much better than the current 2.

The FRU aren't the French clubs.

Also you seem to be labouring up the delusion that the EPCR are clamouring after the SA franchises. Maybe the pro14 are but there's not even been whispers, from anywhere serious, of including Kings/Cheetahs in Europe so thinking the rest of the franchises would just waltz into the champions cup is wishful thinking at best.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Let's all just take a moment to remember how Rugby Africa voted for France to host the World Cup. So yes voting allegiances only last as long as it suits them or the French infiltrates your board. I'm hoping to be a romantic though and would favour staying part of Sanzaar, considering we won the World Cup . That must mean the competition is helping us somehow? The north just lost another wc... I would keep the idea of moving north open but only after a prolonged drought period of no success on the world stage. At that point we say this is not working for us anymore and we go north. Until then we stay in the literal champions cup in the SH

North Africa, where most of those countries are French colonies and even speak french instead of English. We shouldn't have relied on their vote, even though we are on the same continent. What was our downfall was Japan. Thinking that the newest addition to SR would be voting along with the SH nations who are all in the same tournament.

and @TRF_stormer2010 - Rather stick with the devil you know, than the devil you don't. I'm under no illusion of the past and how we got fukked over. But I think that we are all past that, O'Neill is no longer part of RA and his schemes have proven to be less effective, plus NZRU have realised what an ally we are for them. I think there has been a lot more ubuntu than there were a while ago.

All this talk of us going to the NH is to me a bit premature and senseless. We are forgetting about 2 of the biggest leagues in the world in England and France, who isn't involved in the Pro14. Surely they will have something to say about our teams joining them in the EPCR?? Surely have that discussion first, see what the their opinion is on the matter before we even look at sending more teams up North. Plus the Kings and the Cheetahs need to improve in the NH. It's all fine and dandy that the Cheetahs can rack up over 40 points in Bloemfontein, but then can't manage to win their games in the NH. Our clubs/franchises will not perform better than in SR, and dare I say it, they might even perform worse.

Playing against English and French teams who are financially in a way better place than our teams, could become a very tough task.

 

[unrated]

We have shown we can smash their teams, the French teams are disorganized and does not really have that provincial culture. The sharks and stormers plays games that can contest in NH conditions. The cheetahs and Kings does not. Super rugby sides like the Crusaders will test us much more than any top 14 or ep team will ever do
Edit: the motive for my comments on the French teams has to do with the fact that their teams are full of foreigners and these teams take a while to gel. Some of the Super rugby sides are basically together since their academy days

 

[TRF_Olyy]

We have shown we can smash their teams

When?

 

[unrated]

P

When?

preseason friendlies against French teams, Cheetahs matches against pro 14 teams, and Then the Cheetahs are historically weaker than the big 4 of SA

 

[TRF_Olyy]

P

preseason friendlies against French teams, Cheetahs matches against pro 14 teams, and Then the Cheetahs are historically weaker than the big 4 of SA

What's that got to do with the premiership?
I had a quick Google and it looks like these games happened like 4 seasons ago and Racing beat Highlanders in the same block of games - presumably you think NZ rugby would get smashed by the French in that case?
Or do we only deal in hyperbole when pulling off the SA franchises?

 

[unrated]

What's that got to do with the premiership?
I had a quick Google and it looks like these games happened like 4 seasons ago and Racing beat Highlanders in the same block of games - presumably you think NZ rugby would get smashed by the French in that case?
Or do we only deal in hyperbole when pulling off the SA franchises?

I did not specifically mention EP when making the smash remarks. Rather referring to the collective.

If I just based my conclusion on preseason friendlies then I would have stated so, but as I said this idea is supplemented by the Cheetahs involvement in Super Rugby historically and then now in the pro 14. Performance comparisons in mind between NZ sides and the Cheetahs, then I say no! I do not believe the French sides will smash NZ. And then to supplement that further, world rugby rankings , knowledge of youth systems in NZ being very good.

It's opinion at the end of the day, I just stated the reasoning for my opinion. If you differ than the only way it could be resolved is a competitive match between the mentioned parties, but we know that won't happen soon. So we are left with speculation.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I did not specifically mention EP when making the smash remarks. Rather referring to the collective.

If I just based my conclusion on preseason friendlies then I would have stated so, but as I said this idea is supplemented by the Cheetahs involvement in Super Rugby historically and then now in the pro 14. Performance comparisons in mind between NZ sides and the Cheetahs, then I say no! I do not believe the French sides will smash NZ. And then to supplement that further, world rugby rankings , knowledge of youth systems in NZ being very good.

It's opinion at the end of the day, I just stated the reasoning for my opinion. If you differ than the only way it could be resolved is a competitive match between the mentioned parties, but we know that won't happen soon. So we are left with speculation.

But preseason friendlies shouldn't be used at all as measuring basis. Most of those games have like 10-15 players on the bench, the referees don't blow every single infraction and teams don't play their normal game. It's just have the guys have a run out and test a few things and get the players more match fit.

Plus, the NH teams didn't field their first choice teams for those friendlies either. So there is no comparison to make here.

With that said, I think our teams will be competitive regardless of the opposition, I just don't like the idea of us abandoning the SH, just for the sake of geography.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Personally, I'm still for Europe if they'd have us if it'd mean we'd be seeing our best players play (both for and against us) assuming there really is more cash on the other side of the equator and we can add value to what is existing over there.

Either that or can the current SR setup, invest HEAVILY into the Currie Cup as our premier competition (assuming the other nations in SANZJAAR do the same in their dom comps) and have Super Rugby be a top 2/3 (depending on feeder nation and size/competitiveness of domestice league) teams from each nation tournament style competition and have a lower tier competition for the other teams. IE unbundle our own income from SANZJAAR. Also, strength vs strength will sell better.