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South African Quadrangular Tournament

psychic duck

International
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Quadrangular tournament:
Saturday, June 8 (Mbombela Stadium): Scotland v Samoa; Springboks v Italy
Saturday, June 15 (Kings Park): Samoa v Italy; South Africa v Scotland
Saturday, June 22 (Loftus Versfeld):
Team 3 v Team 4 ; Team 1 v Team 2

Can't say I understand this tournament format, and nobody has explained it to me either.
 
Samoan squad named:
Very strong squad full strength as much as I can see. Notable omission is their captain David Lemi.

Note that they have managed to get Hurricanes players Jack Lam and Alapati Leiua to put themselves forward for international. Leiua notably turned down the chance to play at the RWC in 2011 to pursue his All Black career, it now seems he has decided Samoa is the better option.

Samoan squad to tour South Africa
Hookers:
Ti'i Paulo – ASM Clermont France
Ole Avei – Bordeaux Begles
Manu Leiataua – North Harbour


Props:
Cencus Johnston – Toulouse
Logovi'i Mulipola – Leicester
Sakaria Taulafo – Wasps
James Johnston – Harlequins


Locks:
Kane Thompson – Canon Eagles
Iosefa Tekori – Castres
Daniel Leo – Perpignan
Filo Paulo – Cardiff Blues


Loose Forwards :
Taiasina Tu'ifua – Newcastle
Alafoti Fa'osiliva – Bristol
Ofisa Treviranus – London Irish
Jack Lam – Hurricanes
Maurie Fa'asavalu – Harlequins
Fa'alemiga Selesele – Moata'a
** (one to be added) **


Halfback:
Kahn Fotuali'i – Ospreys
Jeremy Su'a – Crusaders
Auvasa Faleali'i – Auckland


First Fives:
Tusi Pisi – Hurricanes
Ki Anufe – Auckland


Midfields:
George Pisi – Northampton
Johnny Leota – Sale
Isaia Tuifua – Vigo Rugby Club
Brandon Vaaulu – Tokyo Gas


Wings:
Alesana Tuilagi – NTT Shining Arcs
Alapati Leiua – Hurricanes
Robert Lilomaiava – Vaiala
**(one more to be added)**


Fullbacks
.
Paul Williams – Stade Francais
James So'oialo – Wellington
 
From how I understand it, it will be a mini-log with the four teams getting similar points to a SR system (4 for a win, 2 for a draw, winning/losing bonus points etc) and after the first two games the top two log teams will play each other in the "winners game" and the bottom two teams will play each other.

So if SA and Samoa both beat Italy and Scotland, they will be top of the log together and will play each other in the final. If Samoa does well and South Africa fares badly, or visa versa it's possible we won't even play each other.

It's a bit strange but I guess they thought having a tournament with a "final" would be more exciting than just seeing who could accrue the most points.
 
From how I understand it, it will be a mini-log with the four teams getting similar points to a SR system (4 for a win, 2 for a draw, winning/losing bonus points etc) and after the first two games the top two log teams will play each other in the "winners game" and the bottom two teams will play each other.

So if SA and Samoa both beat Italy and Scotland, they will be top of the log together and will play each other in the final. If Samoa does well and South Africa fares badly, or visa versa it's possible we won't even play each other.

It's a bit strange but I guess they thought having a tournament with a "final" would be more exciting than just seeing who could accrue the most points.

A log with only 2 matches with 4 teams though seems a bit strange.

As does Italy possibly playing Scotland in SA again as they could get a good crowd and more money in Scotland or Italy for that match than South Africa.

Also Samoa are playing a midweek game vs the Lions on this tour btw.
 
Wonder if this will be televised here? Probably not I suppose but would like to see it stong Samoa squad.
 
Scotland squad:

Loosehead Props:
Alasdair Dickinson (Sale)
Ryan Grant (Glasgow)

Hookers:
Ross Ford (Edinburgh)
Steven Lawrie (Edinburgh) *New call up
Pat MacArthur (Glasgow) *New call up

Tighthead Props:
Geoff Cross (Edinburgh)
Moray Low (Glasgow)
Euan Murray (Worcester)

Locks:
Grant Gilchrist (Edinburgh)
Jim Hamilton (Gloucester)
Alastair Kellock (Glasgow)
Tim Swinson (Glasgow) *New call up

Flankers:
John Barclay (Glasgow Warriors)
Kelly Brown (Saracens)
Alasdair Strokosch (Perpignan)

Number 8's:
Johnnie Beattie (Montpellier)
Dave Denton (Edinburgh)
Ryan Wilson (Glasgow)

Scrum Halves:
Greig Laidlaw (Edinburgh Rugby)
Henry Pyrgos (Glasgow)

Fly Halves:
Tom Heathcote (Bath)
Ruaridh Jackson (Glasgow)

Centres:
Alex Dunbar (Glasgow) *New call up
Peter Horne (Glasgow) *New call up
Matt Scott (Edinburgh)

Wingers:
Sean Lamont (Glasgow)
Tommy Seymour (Glasgow) *New call up
Duncan Taylor (Saracens) *New call up
Tim Visser (Edinburgh)

Full Backs:
Peter Murchie (Glasgow) *New call up
Greig Tonks (Edinburgh) *New call up
 
Never really expected to see Seymour in an Eagles jersey, but disappointed nonetheless.
 
Italy squad. A call up for uncapped 32 year old Argentine at fly half to replace a now retired 32 year old Australian and he joins 31 year old Luciano Orquera who is another Argentine in the squad. Meanwhile the fly half in the Italy A squad is Australian. Italy not making much progress with their fly half problem.

Piloni
Matias AGUERO (Zebre Rugby, 17 caps)
Martin CASTROGIOVANNI (Leicester Tigers, 95 caps)
Lorenzo CITTADINI (Benetton Treviso, 21 caps)
Alberto DE MARCHI (Benetton Treviso, 9 caps)
Michele RIZZO (Benetton Treviso, 7 caps)

Tallonatori
Leonardo GHIRALDINI (Benetton Treviso, 53 caps)
Davide GIAZZON (Zebre Rugby, 10 caps)
Andrea MANICI (Zebre Rugby, esordiente)*

Seconde linee
Valerio BERNABO' (Benetton Treviso, 19 caps)
Marco BORTOLAMI (Zebre Rugby, 94 caps)
Joshua FURNO (Narbonne, 8 caps)*
Antonio PAVANELLO (Benetton Treviso, 18 caps)

Terze linee
Robert BARBIERI (Benetton Treviso, 28 caps)
Mauro BERGAMASCO (Zebre Rugby, 93 caps)
Francesco MINTO (Benetton Treviso, 7 caps)
Sergio PARISSE (Stade Francais, 95 caps) - capitano
Manoa VOSAWAI (Benetton Treviso, 11 caps)
Alessandro ZANNI (Benetton Treviso, 74 caps)


Mediani di mischia
Tobias BOTES (Benetton Treviso, 13 caps)
Alberto CHILLON (Zebre Rugby, esordiente)*
Edoardo GORI (Benetton Treviso, 24 caps)*


Mediani d'apertura
Alberto DI BERNARDO (Benetton Treviso, esordiente)
Luciano ORQUERA (Zebre Rugby, 33 caps)


Centri
Gonzalo CANALE (Stade Rochelais, 82 caps)
Gonzalo GARCIA (Zebre Rugby, 28 caps)
Luca MORISI (Benetton Treviso, 2 caps)*
Alberto SGARBI (Benetton Treviso, 24 caps)


Ali/Estremi
Tommaso IANNONE (Benetton Treviso, 1 cap)*
Andrea MASI (London Wasps, 77 caps)
Luke MCLEAN (Benetton Treviso, 46 caps)
Leonardo SARTO (Zebre Rugby, esordiente)*
Giovanbattista VENDITTI (Zebre Rugby, 14 caps)*
 
I've loved this idea from the start. And the picks are fantastic, these four teams together is awesome.
It sounds like an idea out of the IRB ppl smoking up some buds and making big phone calls during that night, and regretting it the next day...it's a bit of an odd thing of a tournament....but again, cool.

* Italy with their scrum (and newly found attacking flair ?)
* Scotland with everything to prove yet again (I mean let's be honest, they scrapped the hell out of that 6N and managed a much higher ranking than they should...easily the worst team of the tournament). Their only 'impressive' victory coming against Australia in the scrappiest of all possible games...they really have to come out and prove they can win a match up front as opposed to sneak-in tries and relying on a few 3pointers...
* Samoa: full strength, no excuses. This isn't the little brother Samoa anymore, they're big boys now. No excuses, they've GOT to perform. Any loss will be dealt with real bragging rights for the victor, no solution but to perform big. The sneaky upsets days are gone, they're in the same league at least as Italy and Scotland now (in fact ! ranked quite higher than both right now on the IRB table...)
* South Africa: not convincing. Not one bit this past November. The hosts, the most powerful rugby nation by far of the 4; they've got to win every single game or it's a complete catastrophe.
Have never lost to Italy (won all 10) or Samoa (all 7). Scotland's never won one in South Africa.
 
will be an interesting tournament. Of course expect South Africa to be the outright winners, but certainly a great oppurtunty for all the nations to prove themselves, and possibly blood youth players into their setup.
 
Samoa's squad has unfortunately been weakened.

Kahn Fotuali'i is replaced by Junior Poluleuligaga
Auvasa Faleali'i is replaced by Tupou
George Pisi is replaced by Sinoti Sinoti
Maurie Fa'asavalu is replaced by Piula Fa'asalele

These players are unavailable due to "family and personal reasons" hmmmm ............

Sale are refusing to release Johnny Leota so he is yet to join the camp
And Daniel Leo is still suspended due to this incident in the Amlin Quarter Final. (http://www.lerugbynistere.fr/videos/dan-leo-marche-visage-sempere-3004131425.php)

Paul Williams captains the side because David Lemi is injured.

That's some unfortunate news for Samoa, as Fotuali'i, Pisi and Fa'asavalu and Leo would all be first choice starters. Whilst Leota would be first reserve for Pisi.

* Italy with their scrum (and newly found attacking flair ?)
* Scotland with everything to prove yet again (I mean let's be honest, they scrapped the hell out of that 6N and managed a much higher ranking than they should...easily the worst team of the tournament). Their only 'impressive' victory coming against Australia in the scrappiest of all possible games...they really have to come out and prove they can win a match up front as opposed to sneak-in tries and relying on a few 3pointers...

How the hell were Scotland "easily" the worst team of the tournament when they thrashed Italy and finished 3rd?

Italy are fast becoming an overrated team. True they beat France and Ireland and deserve credit, but it doesn't mean they should be elevated to a level above Scotland and Tonga. Tonga have beaten France the last time they played (and more convincingly without having to hold on at the end I might add, plus without home advantage), and that Ireland team was the most vulnerable Ireland team we have seen for years full of crocked players with a dour coach that Scotland beat. All those three are on a level.

All of them are below Samoa anyway.
 
SA had a horrid 2012 even though we won most of our matches but we were 'rebuilding' and a lot of our shoe-ins were injured. Scotland the only team to have beaten us but they should really not get a sniff in SA on hard surfaces. Samoa the only team that should bother us at home but have had some set-backs ITO top players not being available and not having the depth probably to make up for the loss of some world class players. I'd really love for SA to use the opportunity to try to add some depth to our game and not play a win-at-all-costs game or make selections based on this mentality. We would probably gain more from such an excercize than go out there and beat three tier 2 teams through home-advantage and superior structure.
 
I think people are criticising South Africa too much not understanding their situation.

Sure they fell off standard but what do you think is going to happen when Botha, Matfield, Fourie, Burger, du Preez all leave the team. They were all key players and a 1/3 of the team and together have about 400 caps worth of experience.

Of course they weren't going to replace them and just remain as good, it was like England after when Johnson, Back, Dallaglio, Hill and Wilkinson (injury), Greenwood all left the team at once. And at some point New Zealand will face a time when McCaw, Carter, Smith, Nonu and Woodcock all leave the team around the same stage.

So my point is that fans should lower expectations. They were never going have the players or the experience to match the previous side, 2012 may be a disappointment compared to the standards set by those players, but it was always going to be a rebuilding year so there fans shouldn't have expected that.
 
How the hell were Scotland "easily" the worst team of the tournament when they thrashed Italy and finished 3rd?

Italy are fast becoming an overrated team. True they beat France and Ireland and deserve credit, but it doesn't mean they should be elevated to a level above Scotland and Tonga. Tonga have beaten France the last time they played (and more convincingly without having to hold on at the end I might add, plus without home advantage), and that Ireland team was the most vulnerable Ireland team we have seen for years full of crocked players with a dour coach that Scotland beat. All those three are on a level.

All of them are below Samoa anyway.

Oh, I beg to differ there...
the fact of a team finishing 3rd or wtvr can be misleading, as in this case. To me Scotland are the one team that hasn't demonstrated any substance since the November test the most.
They survive matches.
They survived an overwhelmingly predominant Irish performance at home (like 80% Irish ball or smt crazy), got crushed in England to start the tournament (only side England managed to score tries against, the Tuilagi France try was illegal), lost easily at home against Wales in a very poor showing, beat the worst form Italy of the past year on a bunch of easy tries/interception try, and looked poor again against France despite leading at half and that Visser try was illegal.
In June they beat Australia, fair enough, but 9-6 was it. All penalties. Again, surviving matchups.
In November they lived off interception tries/charge downs etc. against NZ, got SMASHED at home, highest score of the tour. Showed little resistance against a very weak Boks team, and then completed the perfect 0-3 at home against Tonga, 2 tries to none.

The fact that they finished 3rd isn't an argument, if one actually watches every single Scotland performance since June '12. And let's not forget they came off a miserable Wooden Spoon year in '12 losing every single one.

By contrast:
France sure sucked like hell in the 6N, certainly not in November, no doubt, no question. But it's France, on paper we can be scary and when we wake up, watch out. Wales and England clearly the best right now in Europe according to the last we've seen. Italy managed some tremendous resistance in November, and then beat France, held England TRY-LESS AT HOME and put up a fantastic performance before beating (a weakened) Irish team for the first time ever, but looked like total **** against Wales/Scotland. And Ireland resisted valiantly in November despite being DECIMATED, and crushed Argentina at home, then played an amazing first half in Cardiff for the only Welsh defeat in the 6N.

Considering all this I come out with the conclusion Scotland isn't simply the least good of the 6N, but easily so. Good for them they grinded out wins with very little/barely anything to show and made the 3rd, it's a quasi-miracle in fact. But Italy is a better team:
- Scotland looked like absolute children in Twickers compared to Italy there
- Scotland didn't show an Italy-Versus-France form in years
- Scotland's defense hasn't looked anything like Italy's when playing elite (remember that Italy NZ game in Nov ? the Italy Aus game ?)
- Scotland's attack is simply those speedy wingers catching the opponents off guard, haven't seen a constructed try in very long. Scotland cannot do what Italy has against France/England, have no flair, can't go wide and dangerous.
- Scotland's scrum holds, but isn't an Italian scrum either.
 
I think people are criticising South Africa too much not understanding their situation.

Sure they fell off standard but what do you think is going to happen when Botha, Matfield, Fourie, Burger, du Preez all leave the team. They were all key players and a 1/3 of the team and together have about 400 caps worth of experience.

Of course they weren't going to replace them and just remain as good, it was like England after when Johnson, Back, Dallaglio, Hill and Wilkinson (injury), Greenwood all left the team at once. And at some point New Zealand will face a time when McCaw, Carter, Smith, Nonu and Woodcock all leave the team around the same stage.

So my point is that fans should lower expectations. They were never going have the players or the experience to match the previous side, 2012 may be a disappointment compared to the standards set by those players, but it was always going to be a rebuilding year so there fans shouldn't have expected that.
That is fair comment but I think the main problem SA fans had with the Bok teams of 2012 was that to a large extent they were damage-control teams rather than the let's-turn-over-a-new-leaf team most SA fans wanted to see. Sure we lost the players you mentioned (as well as G Steenkamp) while other shoe-in 'veterans' were injured (Du Plessis, Pietersen, F Steyn, Habana, J Smith off the top of my head) and the general feeling was that the coach's hand was forced by injury to make the changes he did that were good while at the same time keeping players that everyone thought weren't good enough simply because of their test experience while not being on form (Spies, De Villiers, Kirchner, M Steyn- though he is having a good season this year TBF, Hougaard and Pienaar off form or just not suited to the game HM wants to play). I guess HM just had an impossible job last year and I hope we can build forward during this tournament although we still have some injuries that will stand in HM's way.
 
Oh, I beg to differ there...
the fact of a team finishing 3rd or wtvr can be misleading, as in this case. To me Scotland are the one team that hasn't demonstrated any substance since the November test the most.
They survive matches.
They survived an overwhelmingly predominant Irish performance at home (like 80% Irish ball or smt crazy), got crushed in England to start the tournament (only side England managed to score tries against, the Tuilagi France try was illegal), lost easily at home against Wales in a very poor showing, beat the worst form Italy of the past year on a bunch of easy tries/interception try, and looked poor again against France despite leading at half and that Visser try was illegal.
In June they beat Australia, fair enough, but 9-6 was it. All penalties. Again, surviving matchups.
In November they lived off interception tries/charge downs etc. against NZ, got SMASHED at home, highest score of the tour. Showed little resistance against a very weak Boks team, and then completed the perfect 0-3 at home against Tonga, 2 tries to none.

The fact that they finished 3rd isn't an argument, if one actually watches every single Scotland performance since June '12. And let's not forget they came off a miserable Wooden Spoon year in '12 losing every single one.

By contrast:
France sure sucked like hell in the 6N, certainly not in November, no doubt, no question. But it's France, on paper we can be scary and when we wake up, watch out. Wales and England clearly the best right now in Europe according to the last we've seen. Italy managed some tremendous resistance in November, and then beat France, held England TRY-LESS AT HOME and put up a fantastic performance before beating (a weakened) Irish team for the first time ever, but looked like total **** against Wales/Scotland. And Ireland resisted valiantly in November despite being DECIMATED, and crushed Argentina at home, then played an amazing first half in Cardiff for the only Welsh defeat in the 6N.

Considering all this I come out with the conclusion Scotland isn't simply the least good of the 6N, but easily so. Good for them they grinded out wins with very little/barely anything to show and made the 3rd, it's a quasi-miracle in fact. But Italy is a better team:
- Scotland looked like absolute children in Twickers compared to Italy there
- Scotland didn't show an Italy-Versus-France form in years
- Scotland's defense hasn't looked anything like Italy's when playing elite (remember that Italy NZ game in Nov ? the Italy Aus game ?)
- Scotland's attack is simply those speedy wingers catching the opponents off guard, haven't seen a constructed try in very long. Scotland cannot do what Italy has against France/England, have no flair, can't go wide and dangerous.
- Scotland's scrum holds, but isn't an Italian scrum either.

You've written a lot. None of which changes the fact Scotland have scored more points and conceded less points and finished ahead of Italy every year bar one in the 6 Nations since 2008. And also won substantially more games against SH opposition in the same period. And beat them 34-10. Hardly suggests Italy are "easily" better.

Amusing that you cite Italy's defence against Australia as better than Scotland when the Scots have only conceded 14 points in their last 2 matches with Australia. And Italy only have a very marginally better record of less points conceded against New Zealand these last few meetings as New Zealand play a reserve team every time they play. I don't think Carter or McCaw has played them since RWC 2007 in fact.
 
yeh but you go way back man, I'm talking in a year's time max, like 2012 6N til now. I believe Italy's a better team, they are highly inconsistent, just a quick look at their France/Twickenham form VS Wales/MField form is enough indication. You're telling me about the 2008 6N and recent meetings between Scotland and Australia and NZ and Italy. I mean their current form going into this very thread's subject, the South African Tournament thingy.

Out of the "lot" I've written, I've reason to believe Italy's a better team, and a focused Italy >> a focused Scotland.
Now, Scotland did crush Italy at home and manage a win in Australia as of recently.

But Scotland has looked pretty terrible at home recently, again losing all of last year's 6N matches, then the terrible November tests, then barely holding on in this year's 6N. Whereas Italy, when focused have really been nothing short of impressive, and even more some times.
Just imagine what happens if Scotland goes to Italy right now and Italy plays on form. Scotland were lucky Italy came over this year and faced the most confused squad in the world.
 
The training-squad for the Springboks has been confirmed, after some injury woes. There will still be some players cut from the team before the final squad is announced.

Props:
Tendai Mtawarira (Natal Sharks)
Trevor Nyakane (Free State Cheetahs)
Jannie du Plessis (Natal Sharks)
Coenie Oosthuizen (Free State Cheetahs)
Wiehahn Herbst (Natal Sharks)

Hookers:
Bismarck du Plessis (Natal Sharks)
Adriaan Strauss (Free State Cheetahs)
Chiliboy Ralepelle (Blue Bulls)

Locks:
Eben Etzebeth (Western Province)
Franco van der Merwe (Golden Lions, on loan to the Sharks)
Pieter-Steph du Toit (Natal Sharks)

Back-row:
Siya Kolisi (Western Province)
Arno Botha (Blue Bulls)
Pierre Spies (Blue Bulls)
Lappies Labuschagne (Free State Cheetahs)
Marcell Coetzee (Natal Sharks)
Willem Alberts (Natal Sharks)
Ryan Kankowski (Natal Sharks)

Scrum-halves:
Jano Vermaak (Blue Buuls)
Francois Hougaard (Blue Bulls)

Fly-halves:
Patrick Lambie (Natal Sharks)
Morne Steyn (Blue Bulls)
Elton Jantjies (Golden Lions, on loan to the Stormers)
Demetri Catrakilis (Eastern Province Kings)

Centers:
Jean de Villiers (Western Province)
Juan de Jongh (Western Province)
Jan Serfontein (Blue Bulls)
Robert Ebersohn (Free State Cheetahs)

Wings:
JJ Engelbrecht (Blue Bulls)
Bryan Habana (Western Province)
Lwazi Mvovo (Natal Sharks)
Raymond Rhule (Free State Cheetahs)
Lionel Mapoe (Blue Bulls)
Bjorn Basson (Blue Bulls)

Full-backs:
Gio Aplon (Western Province)
Zane Kirchner (Blue Bulls)
Willie le Roux (GWK Griquas)


I am very excited to see guys like le Roux, Botha, du Toit, Serfontein and Kolisi in the squad, but some players are still in the squad who definitely will not be in the long-term plans. They move overseas later this year. Habana, Steyn and Kirchner all have either signed or are in talks with a European team.
 
Not a good start to the tour for Samoa.

http://www.rugby365.com/16-lions-challenge/1143-lions-vs-samoa/score

Yes Samoa have been absolutely ravaged with several players pulling out and not being available, so much to the extent that they had to draft in a few Wits University players. But they still had easily a good enough team to avoid that scoreline which is awful.

That was absolutely shocking, the MTN Lions are nowhere near good enough to pull that kind of scoreline against Samoa, did they just give up? Hopefully we'll see a highlight package around even a very weak Russian side did better against the MTN Lions.
 
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