Sorry Warren Thread

[munstermuffin]

Which in itself devalues the Lions if one player is deemed more important that the rest of the squad.

Was the '74 lions or '78 Lions tours somehow tarnished because it was made up of predominantly Welsh players?

Personally I'd love the Lions squad and matchday 23 made up of equal amounts of all four nations players, but professional sport doesn't work like that.

Gatland's biggest selection error was Mike Phillips, and even then a lot of people had named him in their test sides expecting bigger performances from him. Vunipola was possibly a mistake in the second test in hindsight as well, but he had an exceptional tour up until that point, so in many ways it was a justified selection.

But he wasn't the only 1 just the example I used. But the point that angered me as I say Gatland picked Welsh guys like Phillips because he's played well for Wales and not on form. Murray came on in 2nd test and had great game and in 3rd played huge part and showed he was form guy. Tuilagi for me was form centre.
@Jbobo can I ask how we were proven wrong?

I posted before game win or loose its didn't matter. The majority here?? It's in my eyes 50:50 as in to people's views on Gatland. Lots point out we could have lost 1st test, it was 1 of worst Aus teams and performance in 3rd, the sour taste by some players despite winning test. But goodbye for good so although I know you will reply.

 

[lynam1104]

People are still continuing their empty arguments trying to hold onto any little negative about the tour that they can and justifying it by just saying 'you can't change my view, it is my opinion'.

Sure we can't change your views, but MOST people on here have been proven dramatically, and beautifully wrong. Especially considering the amount of people who said it was all down to whether we win or not. We won, emphatically in the end.

Thank Christ

Lost complete respect for many posters in terms of their views of rugby in general throughout this tour.

Done with this forum. The arguments are just so drenched in irony and nitpicky b*****s.

Goodbye for good.

Thank Christ

 

[munstermuffin]

That's the problem with you Irish. Far too sentimental. I would have picked BOD too personally, but no way was he entitled to selection based on being a legend (he hardly did much in the first 2 tests anyway). And also no way was the selection as important as made out and that it would have single handedly lost the game.

The Irish can't take the dropping of their established players. Kidney didn't have the guts to get rid of ROG after RWC 2011 when he should have moved on, and only 2 years later and an awful performance against Scotland did he come to his senses. Unbelievably there was still seen as a controversial dropping and caused a storm in the Irish media and some were upset at his "treatment" with his wife moaning he didn't get a nice send off.

At least Gatland has the guts to make big calls. He moved on from Stephen Jones post 2011 RWC, backed Warburton and ditched Martyn Williams, those are two of our best servants over the past decade. If this was Ireland they would have kept them until they decided to retire, or 2 years after it became obvious it was time to move on, and there would have still been an outrage when dropped. Gatland doesn't believe in players being entitled to places like the Irish.

I already said I'd have accepted BOD dropped on form. Tuilagi deserved shirt. Davies played well but deserved chop too. Phillips got back on reputation. Hibbard and Faletau were 50:50 calls and fair enough I can accept them. He'll even Bowe got back in on name.

 

[profitius]

Lets not get carried away. The Lions were hot favourites to win the series in the bookies.

 

[j'nuh]

So is the whole "Gatland is the best thing since sliced bread." The last game was a stormer but this series was very nearly lost after the first 2 games and I don't know anyone who genuinely believes the Lions deserved to win the first game. Hell Gatland himself said he's treat it as a loss because Australia missed far more kicks than is considered acceptable at this level of rugby. After those first 2 games, it was perfectly sensible to doubt Gatland was up to it.

You know what's criminal. That England only won the 2003 WC by THREE points. Best team in the world at the time, not winning in normal time? Ridiculous.

And NZ in 2011! National tragedy for them that such a great team were lucky to beat France in the WC final by ONE point and become world champions. I bet the bars were full of Kiwis drinking to dull the pain.

South Africa couldn't put a try past a very average England team in the 2007 final. LOL at them caring that they won the WC.

Gatland won the Lions tour. Why are you complaining? Go and have fun or something.

Many of the opinions in this thread strike me as results oriented thinking. If Gatland does indeed deserve praise for his third test selections (although I'm not sure who anyone can say that they it was definately the best 23), then doesn't this imply that he got it wrong in the first two tests?

I would argue that the last match had less to do with Gatland's selections and more to do with that the team fronted up. We seem to forget to hold players culpable for their own actions. X missed a tackle and let in a try and instead of holding the player accountable, we seem to fault the coach for picking him.

It's like in the 6N. Jenkins and Tipuric coming into the squad for Wales wasn't the difference between getting past Scotland then demolishing England. It was more to do with a squad that really fronted up.

 

[Peat]

Gatland won the Lions tour. Why are you complaining? Go and have fun or something.

Fun's overrated.

I would argue that the last match had less to do with Gatland's selections and more to do with that the team fronted up. We seem to forget to hold players culpable for their own actions. X missed a tackle and let in a try and instead of holding the player accountable, we seem to fault the coach for picking him.

It's like in the 6N. Jenkins and Tipuric coming into the squad for Wales wasn't the difference between getting past Scotland then demolishing England. It was more to do with a squad that really fronted up.

Not untrue... but not totally true. Wales in the 6N, yeah, they got their confidence back in a tight match and kicked on - but the inclusion of Corbs and more ball carriers in the team, which virtually everyone was calling for after turn 2, did look pretty vital from where I'm sitting. There is only so much fronting up can do if you don't have the tools with which to do so.

For what its worth, I like to think there's more than Win = Good, Lose = Bad. I really don't want to be churlish, even easy Lions tours are difficult and Gatland won and made me happy, but there's still plenty to nitpick for those inclined.

 

[munstermuffin]

@j'nuh the difference there was England and New Zealand were consistent for months and 1 game didn't define that accolade. Add in England beat a good Aus team in their own back yard. Regards South Africa I only really considered them world class in later years when they went through a period being totally brilliant and dare I say they did it with PDV as coach.

 

[psychic duck]

@j'nuh the difference there was England and New Zealand were consistent for months and 1 game didn't define that accolade. Add in England beat a good Aus team in their own back yard. Regards South Africa I only really considered them world class in later years when they went through a period being totally brilliant and dare I say they did it with PDV as coach.

If South Africa had a serious competent coach they could have been the joint top side with New Zealand for the period from 2007-2011.

They had a good front row, the world's best lock combination, a well balanced strong back row with Burger and Brussow, with du Preez masterminding the excellent pack. And good finishers on the wingers, and Fourie on his top game.

Unfortunately for them they decided to appoint a complete ****wit as coach for political reasons who made some of the most downright stupid selection calls of an international coach, and wasted what should have been the golden years for that generation.

 

[munstermuffin]

If South Africa had a serious competent coach they could have been the joint top side with New Zealand for the period from 2007-2011.

They had a good front row, the world's best lock combination, a well balanced strong back row with Burger and Brussow, with du Preez masterminding the excellent pack. And good finishers on the wingers, and Fourie on his top game.

Unfortunately for them they decided to appoint a complete ****wit as coach for political reasons who made some of the most downright stupid selection calls of an international coach, and wasted what should have been the golden years for that generation.

Agreed with fully as I say though around the 09-10 they were an impressive team. I would say it was players quality that did shine through though and lack of top coach was difference is really putting them set up for years

 

[j'nuh]

Not untrue... but not totally true. Wales in the 6N, yeah, they got their confidence back in a tight match and kicked on - but the inclusion of Corbs and more ball carriers in the team, which virtually everyone was calling for after turn 2, did look pretty vital from where I'm sitting. There is only so much fronting up can do if you don't have the tools with which to do so.

I certainly agree. But I also think that most of the team seemed to have had their best game in the last test. Davies, Halfpenny, AWJ, Corbs, Jones, Hibbard etc. put in probably their best performances on tour. I hate to say it for all the gripe I gave him, but I think Phillips did a much better job of protecting the ball and retaining possession than Youngs did.

For what its worth, I like to think there's more than Win = Good, Lose = Bad. I really don't want to be churlish, even easy Lions tours are difficult and Gatland won and made me happy, but there's still plenty to nitpick for those inclined.

To me, the nitpick is done in anticipation. When you're one game away from winning a tournament, and you're worried that the team need to step up their game to win that one game, that's the time to worry about selections. I just find it really odd to see people complaining now that the Lions have completed their sole objective, and in such emphatic style?

 

[Saintjay]

I have nothing to say sorry for.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

You know what's criminal. That England only won the 2003 WC by THREE points. Best team in the world at the time, not winning in normal time? Ridiculous.

And NZ in 2011! National tragedy for them that such a great team were lucky to beat France in the WC final by ONE point and become world champions. I bet the bars were full of Kiwis drinking to dull the pain.

South Africa couldn't put a try past a very average England team in the 2007 final. LOL at them caring that they won the WC.

Gatland won the Lions tour. Why are you complaining? Go and have fun or something.


I would argue that the last match had less to do with Gatland's selections and more to do with that the team fronted up. We seem to forget to hold players culpable for their own actions. X missed a tackle and let in a try and instead of holding the player accountable, we seem to fault the coach for picking him.

It's like in the 6N. Jenkins and Tipuric coming into the squad for Wales wasn't the difference between getting past Scotland then demolishing England. It was more to do with a squad that really fronted up.

All of which has no relation to anything I said. Gatland can be praised for winning the last game convincingly but I don't think he can be praised for being a great tour coach because of the cluster**** in the first 2 games. He can't simply walk away with 1 good game and the win whilst ignoring the fact this same guy very nearly lost the tour through poor choices and was only saved by some of the worst kicking to be seen in international rugby. This mentality is almost as bad as the "well it's a win" mentality England have had after just scraping through all but their first game in this 6 nations.

People are still continuing their empty arguments trying to hold onto any little negative about the tour that they can and justifying it by just saying 'you can't change my view, it is my opinion'.

Sure we can't change your views, but MOST people on here have been proven dramatically, and beautifully wrong. Especially considering the amount of people who said it was all down to whether we win or not. We won, emphatically in the end.


Lost complete respect for many posters in terms of their views of rugby in general throughout this tour.

Done with this forum. The arguments are just so drenched in irony and nitpicky b*****s.

Goodbye for good.

I'm sure you will be welcomed at the ScrumV forum. Plenty of Welsh preaching to the converted there.

 

[dullonien]

All of which has no relation to anything I said. Gatland can be praised for winning the last game convincingly but I don't think he can be praised for being a great tour coach because of the cluster**** in the first 2 games. He can't simply walk away with 1 good game and the win whilst ignoring the fact this same guy very nearly lost the tour through poor choices and was only saved by some of the worst kicking to be seen in international rugby. This mentality is almost as bad as the "well it's a win" mentality England have had after just scraping through all but their first game in this 6 nations.

If this were an international side, which would be taking the field again in a couple of months time, I'd agree. But the Lions is something completely different, they either win or they loose. It doesn't quite matter how they do it (as four years ago proved, by loosing despite playing well). The Lions are a one off, and for that reason Gatland can simply walk away with one convincing win and the test series.

 

[Amiga500]

If this were an international side, which would be taking the field again in a couple of months time, I'd agree. But the Lions is something completely different, they either win or they loose. It doesn't quite matter how they do it (as four years ago proved, by loosing despite playing well). The Lions are a one off, and for that reason Gatland can simply walk away with one convincing win and the test series.

True, he can.

It does not mean he was correct in selections or tactics (indeed, with the degree of luck in test 1, you might say he wasn't vindicated either).

 

[Largejanner]

A none too bright 'small nation' coach sneaks a series win against a *iss poor Wallabies side, no apology needed. Respect to the players though, they won despite the antics of Gatland.

 

[Big Ewis]

can't remember who said it, but do you think anyone really cares nz won the final of the wc by a point? they won, that's what matters.

...hell, yes !!!!!!

 

[Rhondda Rudie]

True, he can.

It does not mean he was correct in selections or tactics (indeed, with the degree of luck in test 1, you might say he wasn't vindicated either).

The selection and tactics were spot on,hence the result.Are you a member of The Flat Earth Society by any chance?

 

[Johnny Boy]

a none too bright 'small nation' coach sneaks a series win against a *iss poor wallabies side, no apology needed. Respect to the players though, they won despite the antics of gatland.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz !!!!!!!

 

[Amiga500]

The selection and tactics were spot on,hence the result.

Are you one of these little clueless clowns that hinge everything on the result? Win and all players and management get 10/10? Lose and they should be sacked the next morning?


The tactics in the last test were a marked improvement - but were not spot on.

The tactics in the first two tests were misguided... at best.

 

[Rhondda Rudie]

Are you one of these little clueless clowns that hinge everything on the result? Win and all players and management get 10/10? Lose and they should be sacked the next morning?


The tactics in the last test were a marked improvement - but were not spot on.

The tactics in the first two tests were misguided... at best.

No,but I tend to have the weakness of believing the evidence of my own eyes.Apart from Phillips I felt every player justified their selection.Gatland's selection differed significantly from my own but he was proved right in spectacular style.That's why he's a world class coach and you or I aren't.

Was also good to have a ref who knew how to ref the scrum and didn't treat the breakdown like a rugby league play-the-ball.