Skelton Jr signs for the Chiefs

[TRF_Olyy]

I am already have my pitchfork out, who am I supposed to be angry with???
Poaching Kiwis/Aussies/Waratahs/Chiefs/Gwentists

Samoa and Tonga, these days.

 

[welshglory]

He's 19, and from what I understand they were trying to sign him, but the Chiefs offered him a reasonably sizable contract out of nowhere

And...?
He was a part of their U20 squad. Might as well have signed him up as soon as possible.

 

[Larksea]

hes too big I think. Another article listed him as like 153kg

very rough project, looks pudgy. it will be a lot of work to get him to ~125kg and athletic which is where he needs to be to actually make it any better than ITM cup level.

 

[ratsapprentice]

very rough project, looks pudgy. it will be a lot of work to get him to ~125kg and athletic which is where he needs to be to actually make it any better than ITM cup level.

His brother is 144kg~... why would he need to get down to 125?

Assuming he has roughly similar physical abilities - which it's perfectly reasonable to do.

 

[Darwin]

His brother is 144kg~... why would he need to get down to 125?

Assuming he has roughly similar physical abilities - which it's perfectly reasonable to do.

Yep, there is no way they would get him down anywhere near 125kgs. I agree he needs to lose some weight, but he is always going to be massive. He has very similar physical dimensions to his brother (if anything he is slightly taller) - I imagine his eventual play weight will be at least 145 kgs...

The scary thing is that their younger brother looks like he will end up being even bigger

 

[Larksea]

ok 125kg is too low but I did write ~125 thinking that anything under 135kg would be good.

Would you ever consider starting these guys unless they were fit and under 140kg

there are not many players over 130-135kg that have long carriers being any more than 20-min off the bench players.

Big Ben is really the only one in the NZ game over that weight that would be considered a top performer, and he has long periods where he struggles to be consistent.

Also, listed weights are all over the place, its not like the players are weighed before each game so we can track how much they actually weigh. Do you know for sure will skelton is playing at 144kg? Wiki lists him as 137kg

I would sooner select someone like tuipulotu ahead of either of these guys. Big enough to be generally the biggest guy on the park, powerful and can still play 80min if need be.

Sure a guy who's 145kg is going to run and offload well but how many tackles is he making? How many rucks is he hitting and how many lineouts is he involved in?

Speight was interesting.

When he was at Waikato, Sivivatu was the chiefs 11
Was a time where NZ franchises mostly selected players within their region and there was a huge amount of depth in the NZ game for wingers.
he was ok at ITM cup but not spectacular started to look pretty good in his last year with waikato. But there was really nothing that showed he was going to be as good as he has been the last couple of years.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Will stated he was 144kg in an interview during the season - it looks about right.

Have you watched Will play at all this season?
He's been great despite his limited cardio - it's pretty remarkable that a guy his size has actually been able to develop the skills that he has.

At a time where "impact players" are par for the course, Skelton sr. is a magnificent player to have at your disposal.
You'll be very happy should his younger brother turn out to be as good.

 

[nzlizard]

At a time where "impact players" are par for the course, Skelton sr. is a magnificent player to have at your disposal.
You'll be very happy should his younger brother turn out to be as good.

Thing I tend to see is the bigger guys tend to give away a few more penalties, Big Ben gets pinged for been lazy sometimes, so its about managing the impact and the fitness and keeping the penalty count down.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Not seen Will give away more penalties than you'd expect from someone in his first full season.

 

[Darwin]

The thing to remember is the Skelton brothers aren't normal. They are freakishly large human beings. They aren't 140-150kg's just because they are carrying a bit of fat (though they could do with more conditioning work), they have absolutely enormous frames. Will Skelton makes someone like Patrick Tuipolotu (who is pretty big in his own right!) look tiny in comparison, and this not just because he is carrying a bit more fat...

Just as a nice visual example of how freakish the Skelton brothers are here is 13 year old Logan (on the right):

You only realise just how big he is when you discover that the "small guy" standing beside him is Waratahs number 8 Tala Grey, who stands 1.94m and is 114kgs......

Players optimal playing weights depend a lot on the individual players. Some players are naturally slim, some are naturally a lot bigger. For example if we think of NZ locks over the last decade or two we have seen quiet a variety of different body shapes. The likes of Norm Maxwell and Ian Jones were tall and thin and had an ideal playing weight of around 100-105kg. No matter how much you tried they were never going to be near as effective at 115kgs. In contrast the likes of Brodie Retallick, Patrick Tuipolotu (and a bit further back Royce Willis, Brad Mika, Mark Cooksley etc) all had much bigger frames, so had ideal playing weights much closer to 120kg. My point I guess is that with the Skelton's freakishly large frames their ideal playing weight will be much higher than a normal locks - 140-145kg may indeed end up being the ideal playing weight.

In terms of how effective they will be I do agree that they are never going to be high work-rate players, and I do think it can be a liability having a lock that can't be lifted in the lineout. However as ratsapprentice points out Will Skelton is an ideal impact player. Like Larksea personally I prefer the sort of lock that spends the match doing his 'core roles' - jumping in the lineout, making his tackles, hitting every breakdown, but I do see a room for an impact player like Will Skelton in the modern games, though teams do have to make adjustments to accommodate them...

 

[Larksea]

something is seriously wrong with that photo

so that kid was over 2m tall when he was 13?

still think there are debates to be had over actual weights.

Here is an article about will from June which suggests he was 135kg and that his goal/ideal weight was near 130

it could be that if Will is listed as 144+kg anywhere its probably from preseason or something like that.

http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/u...opper-faces-toughest-test-20130614-2o9o7.html

ok its not ~125 like I said but it's pretty much what I'm thinking.

here is a recent pick of Cameron with a Waikato top on.

you would have to agree he needs a lot of work. if hes 150+ kgs which doesn't look like an exageration, I think he's need to be under 140 and work towards 135.

dropping 20KG probably not that hard when you start as big as 150, but he will need to put on some muscle as well.

 

[Darwin]

There is no doubt that Cameron Skelton has a quite a bit of weight to lose, but my point is simply that he (and his brother) are never going to be a 'normal' weight range for a lock, no matter how hard they try. Cameron Skelton has a huge amount of work to do before he will be ready for NPC level (let alone Super Rugby) but given his potential I think he is worth the risk....

 

[Guilty]

Has anyone seen Cam Skelton play? Just wondering whether he has the talents of his brother too or just the size.

Imagine seeing the two brothers potentally playing against each other in the Bledisloe in a couple of years... Outside the Tualagi brothers, has this ever happened?

 

[Darwin]

Has anyone seen Cam Skelton play? Just wondering whether he has the talents of his brother too or just the size.

Imagine seeing the two brothers potentally playing against each other in the Bledisloe in a couple of years... Outside the Tualagi brothers, has this ever happened?

I watched him for Samoa at the Junior World Champs. He wasn't impressive. He was largely used off the bench, and despite his size didn't make an impact when he came on. He spent a lot of time walking around the field, didn't really impress with ball in hand, and got penalised a lot (mainly for playing the opposition halfback). He is freakishly large though. I think it is too early to say whether he has Will's talents, but he has time on his side, and he has more than enough size.....

 

[Guilty]

I watched him for Samoa at the Junior World Champs. He wasn't impressive. He was largely used off the bench, and despite his size didn't make an impact when he came on. He spent a lot of time walking around the field, didn't really impress with ball in hand, and got penalised a lot (mainly for playing the opposition halfback). He is freakishly large though. I think it is too early to say whether he has Will's talents, but he has time on his side, and he has more than enough size.....

Interesting observation - thanks.

 

[nzlizard]

One thing about Dave Rennie is he can spot talent, so he sees something that impresses him.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I agree with Darwin - he did practically nothing in the JWC.

It wouldn't be the first time there was a large disparity in ability between siblings - but he's definitely worth persevering with, if it works out you've got a great player at your disposal.

 

[nickdnz]

Has anyone seen Cam Skelton play? Just wondering whether he has the talents of his brother too or just the size.

Imagine seeing the two brothers potentally playing against each other in the Bledisloe in a couple of years... Outside the Tualagi brothers, has this ever happened?

Off the top of my head I have seen the Ma'afu brothers play against eachother (Fiji vs Australia).

 

[Darwin]

I agree with Darwin - he did practically nothing in the JWC.

It wouldn't be the first time there was a large disparity in ability between siblings - but he's definitely worth persevering with, if it works out you've got a great player at your disposal.

I think it is worth noting that Will Skelton wasn't exactly a standout at U20 level. He wasn't even selected for the Australia U20 side, but instead played for Samoa at the Junior World Rugby Trophy. I get the feeling that the Skelton boys were probably able to dominate at younger age-grades purely because of their size, but it looks like Will probably only developed his rugby skills a bit latter on (and is still a work in progress IMO). Cameron Skelton is eligible to play at JWC level again next season - it will be interesting to see exactly who he plays for (Samoa? New Zealand? Australia?).

 

[Geordie]

The Bachop brothers played against each other for Samoa v NZ, and im sure the Umaga brothers probably did to.

Can anyone tell me what they think of Kane Thompson. He has just signed for my club and it'll be interesting here your thoughts. Is he a lock or an 8 predominantly?