Robbie Robinson signs with the Chiefs

[Darwin]

Masanga's defence is good in the line and he's very commited under the high ball. Though Robbie and Nanai aren't as good on defence in the tackle or positioning - though they aren't shy of the tackle I think their issues are more to do with experience and positioning.

And without actually looking at their stats I'd say they are lacking height for a back 3 combination. I'd like to see Tim mikkelson involved, he's very tall and has great skills. Looked pretty good at 15 in this ITM cup as well

The Idea of Sonny Bill and Kahui pairing in mid field sounds pretty darn awesome though.

9)Leonard/Kerr-Barlow
10)Cruden
11)Masaga
12)SBW
13)Kahui
14)Tuala/Nanai-Williams
15)Robinson

Honestly without Mills, Donald and Sivivatu this backline overall to me looks weaker that this years top backline, the main problem in the backs this year was that Donald, Mills and Tana all spent a lot of time injured. Sweeney was mud as a replaceemnt for Tana and Delaney though good against the sharks in one game was below average the rest of the time.

One thing the chiefs have really lacked for a number of years now is a top shelf 12 to pair with Kahui. Kahui was hamstrung outside Bruce in 2010 and starved of quality ball outside Sweeney in 2011. If paired with Sonny Bill we may finally get to see how good kahui can be - the class player we see on attack for the AB's. Was such a huge shame tana spent most of this season injured.

I think Foster got his selections at 12 totally wrong this year.

Main Goal for the chiefs needs to be the tight 5, they will Miss Aled - though his lineout throwing wasn't 100% there aren't many hookers in the world as strong as him in contact around the ruck. The Big Key is going to be the locks, Craig Clarke has been good but not spectacular. Chiefs need a really Classy lock.

This is also an area where Foster screwed up with selections. Chiefs locks made some progress in 2010 but went backwards in 2011.

Chiefs have huge riches in the looseforwards with Messam as the cornerstone.
Bourke
Same Cane
Waldrum
Latimer

plus the likes of Matt Van Leven who's had a strong ITM cup, and maybe even Marty Holah.

There is no way I would start Robinson at fullback over Nanai-Williams; Nanai-Williams has looked pretty comfortable at Super Rugby level, while Robinson always struggled when he has started for the Highlanders at fullback. I think Nanai-Williams is wasted on the wing - I would start him at fullback with someone like Tuala/O'Donnell paired with Masaga on the wing (with Robinson on the bench). I suppose there are no guarantees that Tuala/O'Donnell won't themselves struggle at Super Rugby level....

 

[Larksea]

Robinson will come right, he's young and he will be a better player in 4 or so months time when the super season gets busy.

I think it's a real shame Henry Speight was snapped up by the aussie system, he seemed like the natural successor to Sivivatu's wing but left a year too early!

 

[nickdnz]

I like the look of Tuala. He's big, strong and got a massive punt.

The only problems I have with him is his handling, defense and he may not quite be fast enough. Still, I think if he plays his ITM Cup games at fullback, like he is capable of, he could become a real talent in Super Rugby on the wing.

 

[ranger]

Yeah, the defense is a bit of a concern in that combination. But i think with a clever defensive set they could manage, they have some of the best loose forwards going, and Kahui makes a real effort in cover defense. They have the peices to defend well enough to compete at the top of the comp. If i were drawing up the defence, i would play 1 out. The 7 to check 9 before pressuring the first five, 8 to track after marking the infield cut, 6 to go around behind the defensive line cleaning up linebreaks. 9 marks 10, 10-12, 12-13, 13-14. That leaves the winger sheltered from defensive duties. The extra pressure the looseforwards put on the first reciever takes the pressure off Cruden, and Kahui is probably quick enough to cheat over and watch Sonny Bills assignment aswell just incase the big SBW gets caught out of position.

As far as individual defense, in Robinsons case i think the confidence thing is again a problem; he doesnt look assured of who he should be marking and second guesses himself alot. This leads to him attempting to cover everyone and not really marking out anyone. When he finally decides who to tackle he has invaribly found himself in the wrong position and gets shrugged off. Eventually once he gains confidence he should be alright seen as there isnt anything dramatically wrong with his raw tackle technique. In the mean time he could take a page out of Rene Rangers book and just commit to smashing a guy even if you arent sure its the best decision. At least in that case hes taking a man out of the play.

The tight five does look to be the biggest concern. A starting frontrow of Lynn-Elliot-Afeaki is awesome but beyond that is tricky. In that respect i think they really made a poor move in letting Hikairo Forbes walk. He was getting better every season and is now one of the only players in the country that can cover both 1 and 2 consistantly. Hes a solid scrummager, awesome with ball in hand (especially off the bench) and d's up around the ruck very well. His throwing is still improving but better than De Malmance in any case. This would have been the perfect homegrown option for a bench frontrower that can actually bring something into the game..

At lock i think Clarke is massively underrated in his workrate around the field, he was a huge reason the Cheifs made their finals push a couple years ago. They just need a gun lineout target to pair with him, im not sold on Callum Rettalick, snatching a guy like Bryn Evans would be a great move. Beyond that i really think they should find a place for Luke Andrews, he brings a bit of steel and experience and is actually playing some of the best rugby of his life for BOP, both in the lineout and around the paddock. He should be wearing the 18 shirt most games.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Im sad to see him go but i think it is more because i liked the fact he was home grown rather than he had done much.

All potential and very little deliver. I agree he will mature in the next season or two but he has some catchup to do when compared to someone like Slade who is only 18 odd months older.

Good luck to him and hopefully a different evironment will do him some good

 

[Larksea]

Yeah, the defense is a bit of a concern in that combination. But i think with a clever defensive set they could manage, they have some of the best loose forwards going, and Kahui makes a real effort in cover defense. They have the peices to defend well enough to compete at the top of the comp. If i were drawing up the defence, i would play 1 out. The 7 to check 9 before pressuring the first five, 8 to track after marking the infield cut, 6 to go around behind the defensive line cleaning up linebreaks. 9 marks 10, 10-12, 12-13, 13-14. That leaves the winger sheltered from defensive duties. The extra pressure the looseforwards put on the first reciever takes the pressure off Cruden, and Kahui is probably quick enough to cheat over and watch Sonny Bills assignment aswell just incase the big SBW gets caught out of position.

As far as individual defense, in Robinsons case i think the confidence thing is again a problem; he doesnt look assured of who he should be marking and second guesses himself alot. This leads to him attempting to cover everyone and not really marking out anyone. When he finally decides who to tackle he has invaribly found himself in the wrong position and gets shrugged off. Eventually once he gains confidence he should be alright seen as there isnt anything dramatically wrong with his raw tackle technique. In the mean time he could take a page out of Rene Rangers book and just commit to smashing a guy even if you arent sure its the best decision. At least in that case hes taking a man out of the play.

The tight five does look to be the biggest concern. A starting frontrow of Lynn-Elliot-Afeaki is awesome but beyond that is tricky. In that respect i think they really made a poor move in letting Hikairo Forbes walk. He was getting better every season and is now one of the only players in the country that can cover both 1 and 2 consistantly. Hes a solid scrummager, awesome with ball in hand (especially off the bench) and d's up around the ruck very well. His throwing is still improving but better than De Malmance in any case. This would have been the perfect homegrown option for a bench frontrower that can actually bring something into the game..

At lock i think Clarke is massively underrated in his workrate around the field, he was a huge reason the Cheifs made their finals push a couple years ago. They just need a gun lineout target to pair with him, im not sold on Callum Rettalick, snatching a guy like Bryn Evans would be a great move. Beyond that i really think they should find a place for Luke Andrews, he brings a bit of steel and experience and is actually playing some of the best rugby of his life for BOP, both in the lineout and around the paddock. He should be wearing the 18 shirt most games.

Not sure who the Lynn you have in the front row? You mean Toby Smith? Maybe got him mixed up with Toby Lynn?

Toby smith is awesome, I honestly think he will be an all black and a very good one if he doesn't become injury prone.

As far as Craig Clarke goes yes he's been great but he's not a top shelf/world class lock. All the best super teams have at least one experienved international or world class lock and the chiefs don't. Blues have Ali Williams and Boric, Crusaders have 3 world class locks, highlanders have Donnelly & Bekhuis, hurricanes have the finger phantom (jason eaton) and they also have Bryn Evans who I think is one of the best locks in New Zealand and doesn't get the respect and gametime he deserves at the hurricanes. Shame but I think Bryn is heading overseas...

Callum Rettalick devaloped really well in 2009-10 but wasn't really given much of a chance in 2011 which I think was a big mistake by foster who I think made a lot of selection mistakes this year.

Any way you look at it the chiefs tight 5 doesn't have any frontline all blacks. It's hard to imagine them being contenders without that experience in this area for the young guys to feed off and learn from.

 

[Darwin]

Lock is certainly a weakness for the Chiefs - it sounds like they have four locks signed so far: Craig Clarke, Romana Graham, Brodie Rettalick, and Michael Fitzgerald. Clarke is a solid performer at Super Rugby level, but I wouldn't really have a lot of confidence in the rest of them. Graham certainly has the physical tools required but he is still learning the game, and still has discipline issues. I haven't seen much of Fitzgerald, but he hasn't really impressed me. I think Brodie Rettalick looks incredibly promising, but is still only 20, so he has a lot learn. I'm sure they will sign one more lock (possibly Callum Rettalick..).

 

[ranger]

Yeah i meant Smith haha, too used to Toby Lynn. But yeah locks a problem.
They would be foolish not to get Luke Andrews for a start, maybe also going after Joe Latta now to sure up locking spots for the future would be a good idea.

Its times like this where i wish franchises could trade players. Waldrom/Latimer for Behuis/Donelly/ would benefit both teams.

 

[nickdnz]

Not sure who the Lynn you have in the front row? You mean Toby Smith? Maybe got him mixed up with Toby Lynn?

Toby smith is awesome, I honestly think he will be an all black and a very good one if he doesn't become injury prone.

He'd best be capped in the next few years as he's Australian born.

 

[donmcdazzle]

I wouldn't worry too much about not having big names in the tight 5. Look at the Manawatu pack, no names at all and they're footing it with every team they play. Rennie values hard workers over pretty much everything else in forwards. Colin Bourke won't see the field at all, he is the laziest loose forward in NZ rugby and Rennie won't have much time for it. I'd say Messam will play 8, Waldrom at 7, and anyone's guess at 6. Latimer has really fallen away as a player, don't rate him at all.

Also Mils is a loss in the backs, but Cruden is miles better than Donald so that's a win. Cruden, SBW and Kahui (with Masaga and Mikkelson/Nanai-Williams/Whoever at the back) could rip some teams apart if they get decent ball. I'd be pumped if I was a Chiefs fan, and I might well become one since the canes never pick any Manawatu players.

 

[ranger]

I wouldn't worry too much about not having big names in the tight 5. Look at the Manawatu pack, no names at all and they're footing it with every team they play. Rennie values hard workers over pretty much everything else in forwards. Colin Bourke won't see the field at all, he is the laziest loose forward in NZ rugby and Rennie won't have much time for it. I'd say Messam will play 8, Waldrom at 7, and anyone's guess at 6. Latimer has really fallen away as a player, don't rate him at all.

Also Mils is a loss in the backs, but Cruden is miles better than Donald so that's a win. Cruden, SBW and Kahui (with Masaga and Mikkelson/Nanai-Williams/Whoever at the back) could rip some teams apart if they get decent ball. I'd be pumped if I was a Chiefs fan, and I might well become one since the canes never pick any Manawatu players.

Rennie doesn't just dump players though.. he tells them whats up and gives them time to work it out. It would be a waste to have Messam at 8 because its not his best position and they have Fritz Lee and Bourke to battle it out there. Latimer to cover 6 and 7 off the bench.

 

[donmcdazzle]

Rennie doesn't just dump players though.. he tells them whats up and gives them time to work it out. It would be a waste to have Messam at 8 because its not his best position and they have Fritz Lee and Bourke to battle it out there. Latimer to cover 6 and 7 off the bench.

Bourke won't play, I can't believe people rate him. He's skillful but that's it. Stats show he hits the least rucks, makes the least tackles of any loose forward in the country. He averaged 80 kicking metres per game last year! What the hell is he doing kicking it that often.

 

[ranger]

He played fullback all through the age grade teams, and even played a season for Hawkes Bay at 15 and in the midfield, as well as being their kicker.

The reason he is kicking that often is because hes not just any lumbering forward having a hoof at it. He has one of the biggest punts going and great accuracy. Its probably in the game plan that wherever possible he should take clearing kicks.
Hes a brilliant runner, his support of the ball carrier is great, his passing is right up there with the best of them. His cover defense in cleaning up breaks is top notch too, although he doesnt d up around the rucks as well as he should or play as tight as he needs to.

After coaching Manawatu, Rennie will know better than anyone that he needs to work with what he has rather than starting to disgard options before he gives them a chance..

Im sure you would have rated Bourke at one stage btw

 

[Larksea]

I wouldn't worry too much about not having big names in the tight 5. Look at the Manawatu pack, no names at all and they're footing it with every team they play. Rennie values hard workers over pretty much everything else in forwards. Colin Bourke won't see the field at all, he is the laziest loose forward in NZ rugby and Rennie won't have much time for it. I'd say Messam will play 8, Waldrom at 7, and anyone's guess at 6. Latimer has really fallen away as a player, don't rate him at all.

Also Mils is a loss in the backs, but Cruden is miles better than Donald so that's a win. Cruden, SBW and Kahui (with Masaga and Mikkelson/Nanai-Williams/Whoever at the back) could rip some teams apart if they get decent ball. I'd be pumped if I was a Chiefs fan, and I might well become one since the canes never pick any Manawatu players.

6, Messam
7, Waldrum
8, Fritz Lee

Lee is a great prospect, just needs to work on his dicapline, he gave away far too many silly penalties this year. Ben May was another, part of me is glad he's left because he did some stupid stuff at the breakdown to give away penalties. At times he had the ref shouting at him again and again and he would just keep going.

I agree the Manawatu forward pack is the shining light of that team and the reason they do so well, more so than Cruden IMO. They dont have big names but they work very very well as a unit. But I think you need more than that to win a super ***le. I think you need a prop that's a major threat at the scrums and a Lock that's a major threat to oposition lineouts.

Cruden vs. Donald

Cruden's a good palyer and he is a very shifty character on attack and stronger than Donald as a play maker as far as his darting runs and acceleration & offload goes. But Donald is a bettrer goal kicker, a much Better defender, he's more experienced. And Don is a pretty big and fast guy, strong runner. Heck in the last year Donald has ran in two trys himself over Cruden and a third which was scored when Donald Run at cruden and layed the ball back for the next player to score. And people underrate Donalds ability as a play maker, he's very good at spotting space and kicking/passing ball into that space to create opportunities and he has the speed/power to take gaps when they present themselves.

We haven't seen the best from donald at super level in the last couple of years. 2010 the Chiefs forward pack was gutted with injuries and the backs got almost no good ball after about the 3rd game of the season. And this year just as he started hitting his straps he picked up a back injury which kept him out for 4-5 weeks after that he obviously carried the injury while playing for another 4 weeks or so and only looked back to his best for the last two games of the season. He's back mostly injury fee in ITM cup and looking very good - kicking 100% for goal as well. In 2009 when the chiefs forward pack clicked we saw how good donald can be, he ran the show superbly at times maybe even the best 10 in super rugby as the chiefs won was it about 13 games in a row?

I'm not sold on Cruden. Part of me feels that his arrival on the NZ scene and all the hype around it is somewhat a False Dawn. He's only about a year younger than Slade and I dont think he will ever be as good as slade and I honeslty don't think he has the same potential as guys like Barrett, Anscombe or Bleyendaal. Though he could actually be a pretty handy halfback... Seems a more natural position for him. Cruden has also been protected a lot in his first two super seasons. Only really had a handful of games each year - taking the leading role at 10 in super rugby from game 1 week in week out is a big unknown for cruden.

 

[Larksea]

Rennie doesn't just dump players though.. he tells them whats up and gives them time to work it out. It would be a waste to have Messam at 8 because its not his best position and they have Fritz Lee and Bourke to battle it out there. Latimer to cover 6 and 7 off the bench.

I actually think #8 is Messam's best position, though I'd put messam at 6 to allow for Fritz Lee.

Going to be interesting to see who captians the Chiefs.

Messam is the obvious choice. Craig Clarke maybe... and I also think Kahui will put his hand up.

 

[donmcdazzle]

I can't even believe you're comparing Blyendaal's potential to Crudens. Blyendaal is the next (if he's lucky) Stephen Brett.

Donald has benefitted from a coach who has backed him year after year, in or out of form. Cruden will now benefit from this with Rennie. Donald is fine at provincial level, but honestly if you chucked him in the turbos I doubt they'd be doing as well as they are.

Cruden's game I reckon is similar in style to Larkham's. Always seem like they threaten the line and fix defenders. Pretty much any decent back movement the turbos have involve Cruden. Next year he will flourish having quality midfielders like Kahui around him. At the moment he is pretty much the only guy opposing defences have to worry about in the backs and he still makes line breaks all over the place.

As for Bourke, Ranger I reckon you've summed his problems up. I know all about how he used to be a back and stuff, I think he should've stayed in the backs. He is too skilfull for his own good in that he plays as if he is in the backs. I've said a few times statistics show he is the laziest loosie in the country.

 

[Larksea]

I can't even believe you're comparing Blyendaal's potential to Crudens. Blyendaal is the next (if he's lucky) Stephen Brett.

Donald has benefitted from a coach who has backed him year after year, in or out of form. Cruden will now benefit from this with Rennie. Donald is fine at provincial level, but honestly if you chucked him in the turbos I doubt they'd be doing as well as they are.

Cruden's game I reckon is similar in style to Larkham's. Always seem like they threaten the line and fix defenders. Pretty much any decent back movement the turbos have involve Cruden. Next year he will flourish having quality midfielders like Kahui around him. At the moment he is pretty much the only guy opposing defences have to worry about in the backs and he still makes line breaks all over the place.

As for Bourke, Ranger I reckon you've summed his problems up. I know all about how he used to be a back and stuff, I think he should've stayed in the backs. He is too skilfull for his own good in that he plays as if he is in the backs. I've said a few times statistics show he is the laziest loosie in the country.

When you say Donald benefitted from A coach which one do you mean? Chris Gibbes? Ian Foster? Wayne Smith maybe? Graham Henry maybe? or someone else? because obviously all these guys rate him.

Cruden similar to Larkham? larkham was almost 6ft 3 and quiet big for a first 5. If anything Crudens weakness is that he's tiny. I still think he would be a better halfback.

I dont believe Blyendaal is the next Brett, so far he looks good for a 20year old but with these young 10's it's very hard to know how they will go. So many of them haven't lifed up to the hype. Dan Kirkpatrick is one. Willi Ripia, Dan Bowden was pretty average for a while and as soon as he started to look good he took off overseas. Brett was spectacular to begin with but as he matured his game kinda went downhill.

Gotta admit Bauden Barrett is a very exciting prospect though. I honestly think he's already a better player than Cruden. Does seem like a bit of a lad though. Crudens strength is his work ethic, maturity and mind for the game and his devalopment on and off the field. I think it someone can mentor Barrett and teach him what's required to perform at the higest level and the desire to do the work then I think barrett will easily be the better of cruden.

But to me Blyendaal looks to be pretty steady, has good a good kicking base - much better than cruden at the same age. And he is physically more robust as well. Seems to have had his progression managed quite well.

True Cruden will be better with a good 12 outside him - though I dont know how a move to the chiefs will help because at the canes he had weepu inside him and Nonu/Smith outside him - you can't ask for more quality than that... which right now is a major problem for the chiefs and one of the reasons Donald has struggled at times over he last two seasons. In 2010 Calum Bruce was mud for the chiefs after being quite good in 2009. And this year Sweeney was utterly useless as a replacement for the mostly injured Tana Umaga. Donald showed his frustration with Sweeney a number of times this year and his constant selection was utter bullshit from foster who for some reason must have wanted to protect Jackson Willison.

 

[donmcdazzle]

I meant Foster at Super level. Henry and Smith have hardly picked him year after year irrespective of form. Cruden has never had a decent run for the canes, hence why he left. Also this year he had to play outside Eaton and Keats, who are both dire. And in the middle of the Nonu/Hore coaching fiasco. Donald hasn't been helped by Kahui's injuries and the lack of decent 12's, I'll give you that. Cruden, SBW, Kahui will be dynamic though surely you're excited about that prospect?

Barrett is a prospect but clearly not as good as Cruden yet, come on that's ridculously biased. What has Barrett done? One good performance with the boot? He was pretty quiet against the Turbos in the loss. Saying he will easily be better after like 5 games for naki is a bit naive, give him a few seasons before jumping to conclusions. Look what happened to the others you mentioned (Brett, Bowden).

 

[donmcdazzle]

Also, I said his game was like Larkham not that he looked like him! Larkham's main strength was taking the ball to the line and fixing defenders, like Cruden. Although Larkham developed into the best passer I've ever seen, which every 1st 5 would do well to emulate.