[Six Nations 2018] - Ireland

[Leonormous Boozer]

So if Jackson and Sexton go down Mads comes in to start, if one is out Scannell is in the 22 shirt. Fair enough.

 

[Groundhog]

So if Jackson and Sexton go down Mads comes in to start, if one is out Scannell is in the 22 shirt. Fair enough.

Well Mads won't be immediately available to us because of T14, but I think that's the situation ceteris paribus ya.

 

[munstermuffin]

So if Jackson and Sexton go down Mads comes in to start, if one is out Scannell is in the 22 shirt. Fair enough.

Or is Scannell going to be 22.
I think Carbery will be in before Madigan.
Also again I'd have to ask as a 10 does he merit it? He is struggling to be the out and out 10 at Bordeaux. Couldn't get in at Leinster. As I said he's good player but not a 10 to start. Schmidt doesn't trust him fully as Ireland need a 10 that can kick well and this was shown by decision to start Keatley in Italy.

 

[Groundhog]

Well any form out half who plies his trade in Ireland will be ahead of Madigan, but in terms of last case scenario, Scannell will not be started at 10, but is trusted to have the 22 shirt due to his versatility. I agree Madigan does not deserve to play in an ideal world, but if worst came to worst we would have to call him up, and start him ahead of Byrne, Scannell and anyone else because he knows the system and the position.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Or is Scannell going to be 22.
I think Carbery will be in before Madigan.
Also again I'd have to ask as a 10 does he merit it? He is struggling to be the out and out 10 at Bordeaux. Couldn't get in at Leinster. As I said he's good player but not a 10 to start. Schmidt doesn't trust him fully as Ireland need a 10 that can kick well and this was shown by decision to start Keatley in Italy.

I highly doubt Scannell will be in the 22 shirt, that is a needless gamble when every outside back position in the likely starting team (Henshaw, Ringrose, Trimble, Zebo, Kearney) is covered on the pitch. Scannell, McCloskey, Marshall or Earls can fit the 23 shirt and not require us to have a rookie 10 as a replacement.
Carbery is ahead of Madigan and Scannell, I'd say Schmidt was answering questions based on his current options.
Saying Madigan couldn't get the 10 jersey at Leinster is a very poor argument, in MO'C's last year almost everyone could see he was a better choice than Gopperth who was in miserable form while Madigan (A bad place kicking display in an away draw to Wasps aside) really kept it together, holding a coach's incompetence against him isn't fair. The Keatley argument sucks too considering Mads was trusted to start an RWC QF and was ahead of Paddy Jackson until the SA tour last year when PJ took his game to a new level.

 

[munstermuffin]

Well any form out half who plies his trade in Ireland will be ahead of Madigan, but in terms of last case scenario, Scannell will not be started at 10, but is trusted to have the 22 shirt due to his versatility. I agree Madigan does not deserve to play in an ideal world, but if worst came to worst we would have to call him up, and start him ahead of Byrne, Scannell and anyone else because he knows the system and the position.

But my point is Byrne Carty and Keatley will be ahead of Madigan. And the question is I agree he knows the system but as I said earlier in month Scannell has been in camps in Nov for AIs and Dec and was being drilled in to him 10 role. Carty was same in Dec and Jan. I'd say they're up to speed now. I'm not saying Scannell will start 10 just the system is in these guys heads. Also Carbery is back running. And for next 10 days or so Scannell will be playing exclusively as a 10 in camp.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

But my point is Byrne Carty and Keatley will be ahead of Madigan. And the question is I agree he knows the system but as I said earlier in month Scannell has been in camps in Nov for AIs and Dec and was being drilled in to him 10 role. Carty was same in Dec and Jan. I'd say they're up to speed now. I'm not saying Scannell will start 10 just the system is in these guys heads. Also Carbery is back running. And for next 10 days or so Scannell will be playing exclusively as a 10 in camp.

I really don't think they will be, in terms of starting 10's I imagine Schmidt sees it as Sexton, PJ, JC, Mads, please God let someone be available after that.

 

[Groundhog]

Craig Ronaldson for Irish 10

 

[munstermuffin]

I really don't think they will be, in terms of starting 10's I imagine Schmidt sees it as Sexton, PJ, JC, Mads, please God let someone be available after that.

All I'd say is i will disagree on Madigan. He's not even first choice for club and has never been a 1st choice. Now I'd have Byrne and Carty ahead personally as they're in Ireland and have shown much more.
But if it gets that far it'd be rough anyway.
All I'm saying is you might not think Scannell will see bench but these are 3 solid facts.
1. Schmidt is huge fan
2. Schmidt has requested he play 10
3. Schmidt has came to Munster and in camps worked with Scannell on being a 10.

Now look Scannell is a centre and isn't a 10. Won't start a 10 but Schmidt wouldn't go to that length if he hadn't rated him so high. Now he might not be in 23 but he's certainty in thoughts.
I'd equally say Madigan is a good player but not a good 10. His tactical kicking is shocking and I'd say if he started 10 we would struggle as much as if Scannell started there. Scannell has better kicking game but can't run a backline from 10 thats where Madigan can as he's a running rugby player.
But I'd say this is pointless as Scannell won't start as a 10 and Madigan has to try better Beauxis and Hickey first for club. Now my pointbwaa more if he was that good every coch can't be wrong.
Everyone in Munster said JJ Hanrahan should've been our starting 10. Foley stuck with Keatletly and overall Axel god rest him was proven right.
On RWC he played well against a poor French team but it was a running rugby style that suites him. Against Argentina didn't he kick 3 balls out and a drop off straight out.
Like again I'm not saying he is a poor player just he hasn't a tactical kicking game which is key to Ireland gameplan.
In South Africa he wasn't playing well and saw hardly any minutes

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

All I'd say is i will disagree on Madigan. He's not even first choice for club and has never been a 1st choice. Now I'd have Byrne and Carty ahead personally as they're in Ireland and have shown much more.
But if it gets that far it'd be rough anyway.
All I'm saying is you might not think Scannell will see bench but these are 3 solid facts.
1. Schmidt is huge fan
2. Schmidt has requested he play 10
3. Schmidt has came to Munster and in camps worked with Scannell on being a 10.

Now look Scannell is a centre and isn't a 10. Won't start a 10 but Schmidt wouldn't go to that length if he hadn't rated him so high. Now he might not be in 23 but he's certainty in thoughts.
I'd equally say Madigan is a good player but not a good 10. His tactical kicking is shocking and I'd say if he started 10 we would struggle as much as if Scannell started there. Scannell has better kicking game but can't run a backline from 10 thats where Madigan can as he's a running rugby player.
But I'd say this is pointless as Scannell won't start as a 10 and Madigan has to try better Beauxis and Hickey first for club. Now my pointbwaa more if he was that good every coch can't be wrong.
Everyone in Munster said JJ Hanrahan should've been our starting 10. Foley stuck with Keatletly and overall Axel god rest him was proven right.
On RWC he played well against a poor French team but it was a running rugby style that suites him. Against Argentina didn't he kick 3 balls out and a drop off straight out.
Like again I'm not saying he is a poor player just he hasn't a tactical kicking game which is key to Ireland gameplan.
In South Africa he wasn't playing well and saw hardly any minutes

But worse than Scannell, Byrne and Carty? No way. He's also started more than half the games in an obvious rotation system with UBB when fit, that sounds first choice to me!

I obviously rate the guy higher than you do but my argument is that if the three guys who have played 10 this season are unavailable to start he's a better bet than a centre, a lad who couldn't start ahead of the US national side's 10 and Byrne who has the same problems Mads does and more! Its really a no brainer to me!

 

[munstermuffin]

But worse than Scannell, Byrne and Carty? No way. He's also started more than half the games in an obvious rotation system with UBB when fit, that sounds first choice to me!

I obviously rate the guy higher than you do but my argument is that if the three guys who have played 10 this season are unavailable to start he's a better bet than a centre, a lad who couldn't start ahead of the US national side's 10 and Byrne who has the same problems Mads does and more! Its really a no brainer to me!

As I said Scannell isn't a 10 and other 2 are not better than Madigan. I'm not denying that but that doesn't meant he's an answer. I'm rooting for other 2 as they're in Ireland. That's root of my issue. If it gets that far I would be thinking we are up **** creek regardless. As I said Madigan is a good player but hasn't kicking game which is vital to gameplan.
On his time at Bordeaux he's not seen as a starter. Yes he's getting games but not there main man. Hickey it seems is that now. And thats word from Bordeaux people not me.
But as I said my main issue is he left these shores so should suffer and we should reward lads that stay

 

[munstermuffin]

I'd ask a question is Madigan good enough that he deserves the special treatment of
Missing camps
Has to travel back and forth to France.
And isn't playing out of skin.

I'd ask is he a special player to give treatment over lads in camp for.

 

[Peat]

I am utterly bewildered to what Carty and Byrne have shown that's more than Madigan's shown.

 

[munstermuffin]

I am utterly bewildered to what Carty and Byrne have shown that's more than Madigan's shown.

They haven't. It more Madigan hasn't a kicking game which is vital to gameplan and he's abroad.
As I said if we get that deep it's **** creek.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

They haven't. It more Madigan hasn't a kicking game which is vital to gameplan and he's abroad.
As I said if we get that deep it's **** creek.

**** creek with Madigan and Schmidt working together doesn't have history, the Kearneys and Earls were much more at fault for the RWC exit with guys like Toner and Murray stinking the place up too if my memory serves me correctly. If we were to face England with Madigan at 10 and an otherwise fit team we have a chance, the same couldn't be said about Carty, Byrne or Scannell.

Picking on form is a bit fantastical too, some of England's key players are having rotten seasons at Saints and Leicester and are going great under Jones.

The Ireland team to go out next week won't all be guys in good form, it'll read like this;

1. McGarth
2. Best - struggling in Ulster
3. Furlong
4. Toner
5. Henderson - struggling with Ulster
6. Stander
7. SOB - been a penalty machine when fit for Leinster
8. Heaslip
9. Murray
10. Sexton - Playing well but with few minutes
11. Zebo
12. Henshaw
13. Ringrose
14. Trimble - Strugg... sort your **** out up there.
15. Kearney - Playing well but caught behind Isa

16. Tracy - Inconsistent
17. Healy - Inconsistent
18. Bealham
19. Ryan
20. VdF - Not where he was in November
21. Marmion/McGarth - Neither setting the world alight week in week out.
22. Jackson
23. Scannell/Earls - this is tge only place they might pick based on recent form, Earls isn't scoring tries which is why he gets picked in green and Scannell is playing terrific stuff.

The only points of contention would be calls for Earls/TO'H in the back three which is replacing an international, and formerly world, class 15 for a 15 who's way off or Keith Earls who is consistently a 6 or 7 out of 10 player at this level and nothing more. Tracy v Scannell is picking the lad in worse form who has experience in the squad and playing this level over someone who doesn't. Henderson v Ryan is picking a much needed carrier over a workhorse which you have in Toner, Heaslip and Best already and Bealham is a better player than Ryan. At this level picking class is more important than picking on form for the most part because the best players will invariably be playing the best stuff and those who aren't will be picked up by playing with better players.

I'd planned just to get some discussion on the likely 23 going but might as well back up Mad Dog while I'm at it!

 

[corny]

'Form' is seriously overstated around these parts. Perceptions of 'in' and 'out' of form can change (and probably will) change in an instant next week. Within reason...pick your best team.

 

[munstermuffin]

If I was picking.

McGrath
Best
Furlong
Ryan
Toner
Stander
Van Der Flier
Heaslip
Murray
Sexton
Earls

Henshaw
Ringrose
Trimble
Zebo

Scannell
Kilcoyne
Bealham
Henderson
O'Mahony
Marmion
Jackson
I'm torn between Scannell but he only covers centre. Kearney I know Alpha will disagree but he isn't good enough and Bowe who is probably past it but natural finisher.
I'll go Bowe.

I think Healy isn't performing up to scrath. Played well in last Europe game but rewarding Kilcoyne for superb performances in open and scrum. O'Mahony over SOB as I think Van Der Flier deserves spot and SOB on bench is risk due to fitness.
On wings I've went for Earls as I'd agree he hasn't been flying it but is a proven finisher and vs Glasgow away his last game he was superb. Trimble has been superb defensively and Zebo at 15 as he's in game so much more and influences game.
Ryan over Henderson for me is based on form and I'm still to be convinced of Henderson as a lock as anytime he seems to be getting there he is flung back to 6.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

If I was picking.

McGrath
Best
Furlong
Ryan
Toner
Stander
Van Der Flier
Heaslip
Murray
Sexton
Earls

Henshaw
Ringrose
Trimble
Zebo

Scannell
Kilcoyne
Bealham
Henderson
O'Mahony
Marmion
Jackson
I'm torn between Scannell but he only covers centre. Kearney I know Alpha will disagree but he isn't good enough and Bowe who is probably past it but natural finisher.
I'll go Bowe.

I think Healy isn't performing up to scrath. Played well in last Europe game but rewarding Kilcoyne for superb performances in open and scrum. O'Mahony over SOB as I think Van Der Flier deserves spot and SOB on bench is risk due to fitness.
On wings I've went for Earls as I'd agree he hasn't been flying it but is a proven finisher and vs Glasgow away his last game he was superb. Trimble has been superb defensively and Zebo at 15 as he's in game so much more and influences game.
Ryan over Henderson for me is based on form and I'm still to be convinced of Henderson as a lock as anytime he seems to be getting there he is flung back to 6.

You need to cover centre from the bench.

Saying Kearney isn't good enough while picking Earls based on his last European game is just baffling to me, Kearney had a very strong 55mins v Castres and an equally strong cameo against Montpellier and was justifiably ahead of Earls in the Autumn. RK is a starter in this side until Sweetnam, Byrne or O'Loughlin knock him out.

Ryan, VdF and POM, and Kilcoyne is picking form over class if you ask me. Henderson, SOB and Healy are the better players and that's what I think Schmidt will base his selection on.

 

[munstermuffin]

You need to cover centre from the bench.

Saying Kearney isn't good enough while picking Earls based on his last European game is just baffling to me, Kearney had a very strong 55mins v Castres and an equally strong cameo against Montpellier and was justifiably ahead of Earls in the Autumn. RK is a starter in this side until Sweetnam, Byrne or O'Loughlin knock him out.

Ryan, VdF and POM, and Kilcoyne is picking form over class if you ask me. Henderson, SOB and Healy are the better players and that's what I think Schmidt will base his selection on.

Well as I said Bowe can cover centre as can Earls. And I picked Earls as from watching Munster he hasn't played as badly as you make out and has set up plenty. I suppose it opinions nobody in Munster rates Kearney that high anymore and in Leinster Earls is same. And I cant remember him being ahead of Earls as he is 15 and Earls got in 23 when fit.

On last bit thats what I'm arguing. I think Kilcoyne is on par with Healy now. Ryan over Henderson I explained as well as SOB
Also I won't be suprised if Scannell is 22. Just saying

 

[The Jones Boy]

If he is fit then SOB will walk into the Irish side. He is head and shoulders above his rivals. The guy is a machine in green for his country.
Any team list without him in the starting line up isn't credible.