Should the 6 Nations be an open competition (w/ relegations and promotions)?

[ncurd]

And remember Steve Walsh qualified as an international referee twice!

 

[Feicarsinn]

think it's the only major nation to not produce an international ref......

Decent indicator. I also find that womens' sides are usually a pretty good indicator of the overall strength of a nation moreso than their male counterparts.

 

[smartcooky]

think it's the only major nation to not produce an international ref......

Carlo Damasco? They also have a promising new guy, Marius Mitrea

Meanwhile, when was the last time a Scottish referee was on the international panel... Jim Fleming in 1999? He was the last Scottish referee to be selected on a RWC panel. Even Argentina has had a RWC referee more recently than that (Pablo DeLuca, 2003), and Carlo Damasco was an AR at the 2011 event.

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Italy's biggest problem, both in player and referee production, is the poor standard of its domestic competition. the former Super 10., now known as the "National Championship of Excellence" is anything but.

 

[The Jones Boy]

The other side of this discussion is... if a team were to be relegated from the 6Nations, where would they land?
There is a gaping hole in Europe waiting to be filled by a second tier competition where teams like Spain, Portugal, Georgia and Romania can do battle against each other, gather experience on the big stage and get some profile. This could be happening during the Autumn window for internationals?
Would this help the countries involved to keep their players and stop them from trying to gain residency at another country?
Hard to say, maybe not where money is involved.
I would watch a second tier International European competition.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Meanwhile, when was the last time a Scottish referee was on the international panel... Jim Fleming in 1999? He was the last Scottish referee to be selected on a RWC panel. Even Argentina has had a RWC referee more recently than that (Pablo DeLuca, 2003), and Carlo Damasco was an AR at the 2011 event.

Changleng brothers?

 

[ncurd]

There is tier 2 competition.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Nations_Cup_(rugby_union)

 

[Feicarsinn]

The other side of this discussion is... if a team were to be relegated from the 6Nations, where would they land?
There is a gaping hole in Europe waiting to be filled by a second tier competition where teams like Spain, Portugal, Georgia and Romania can do battle against each other, gather experience on the big stage and get some profile. This could be happening during the Autumn window for internationals?
Would this help the countries involved to keep their players and stop them from trying to gain residency at another country?
Hard to say, maybe not where money is involved.
I would watch a second tier International European competition.

Seeing as it already exists I doubt that you would.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Nations_Cup_(rugby_union)

 

[profitius]

Something should be done to help tier 2 nations. Start off by getting them games against tier 1 nations in the summer or autumn internationals. At the moment they have a world cup and then nothing for 4 years. Thats not good enough.

 

[goodNumber10]

Something should be done to help tier 2 nations. Start off by getting them games against tier 1 nations in the summer or autumn internationals. At the moment they have a world cup and then nothing for 4 years. Thats not good enough.

Someone correct me if i'm wrong but Tier 2 teams all get a test against a tier 1 team each autumn and an incoming Tier 1 tour every world cup cycle(not sure on that), they also all play round robin tests each autumn as well as their respective tournaments either in the 6nations or spring windows.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Unfortunately finger pointing at "the blazers" is pretty much the de-facto mindset amongst much of the "tier 2 community" from what I've seen.
What they don't seem to get is that even the top rugby countries aren't exactly built on solid ground financially - England has what... 3 clubs that break even or make a modest profit?
Risking the 6N for the sake of developing other countries would be madness...
Should the top tier 2 sides get more games in the summer/autumn? Absolutely, but you're deluded if you think the home nations can afford to experiment with the 6N.

I wouldn't mind seeing an annual summer/autumn test held between the equivalent ranking 6N/ENC teams - i.e winner of 6n plays winner of ENC, 2nd plays 2nd etc...
Even if it was 6N "B" sides like the Saxons/Wolfhounds, I used to really enjoy the Churchill cup - you could even hold it as a series/event in a single city.
I'd watch that with just as much interest as a Barbarians game - **** it... choose the Barbarians solely from the ENC.
There are lots of things that could and should be done to give emerging countries better quality games, putting them into the 6N isn't one of them.

 

[Jaguares]

I support this idea. The promotions games would be very very interesting

Italy's biggest problem, both in player and referee production, is the poor standard of its domestic competition. the former Super 10., now known as the "National Championship of Excellence" is anything but.

I support Italy in rugby, but they will never be a world class team, at least in the short/medium term. The problem of Italy is not just rugby, they can't even make their own soccer players.

Italy is suffering a severe crisis in soccer, the most popular sport, so we can't expect much from Italian rugby.

 

[Rich Taff]

I am an Italian and German Rugby fan and I am all in favour of it!

Why?

well I DO NOT BELIEVE Italy would go down.

I will quote myself from another forum cause I am lazy!

"
There have been games that were badly reffed that meant Italy came last. But the have been championships where Italy didn't come last and in 2013, for small margins of error Italy could have come much higher.


The real villains of the piece is the Old boys network of the British Isles keeping a closed door club so that Wales and Scotland are guaranteed to have pro rugby and not end up like the Soccer counterparts.

England couldn't careless if they stopped playing Wales or Scotland, but the are part of the same sovereign state, so they will not break the club.

Any change would have to forced by either the Latins leaving, (which there is no financial reason to), or World or Europe rugby to enforce it, ( but that won't happens since it is in the hands of the Anglo group), which leaves the EU courts! Teir 2 teams would have to take it to the European courts as it goes against fair competition rule in the EU

and one more thing... since the Anglo group own the refs is P/R was forced upon them, I would not bet against games being reffed to make sure the Home nations stayed up.

Look at the RWC in NZ! France should have won that game, but weren't allowed to. If Jurbert had blow for just 1/4 of the offsides NZ were in... "

So how would this Promotion relegation work...

Well I think it would have to take the format of the European cup of Nations... so it is take over 2 years so that all the teams get a home and way aggregate and the promoted team gets one year to get up to speed and the next to see if they survive.

In practice because the 6N is every year and the top of the tree their would be need to change the way teams are crowed champions and it can stay yearly but the over all relegation would be in table over 2 years!

Clear as mud?

Possibly the dumbest post I've ever read on these forums.

I'd like to point out that there has never been 'relegation' from the premier tournaments. There have been additions (France to the 4n, Italy to the 5n, Argentina to the 3n (I'm just counting nations in the tournament, not going to get into the 'superduper tournie vs the oldbutbettersupport' etc etc)

 

[Gavin]

Italy are competition for the rest of the Six Nations, but the lack of funding hampers their progression

 

[LittleGuy]

Someone correct me if i'm wrong but Tier 2 teams all get a test against a tier 1 team each autumn and an incoming Tier 1 tour every world cup cycle(not sure on that), they also all play round robin tests each autumn as well as their respective tournaments either in the 6nations or spring windows.

I think that's only the PI's who get the autumn tests consistently. Canada haven't played a Tier One opponent in the autumn since 2008 (aside from the RWC in 2011). We usually average one inbound here in the spring(some years two, other's zero), Scotland, Ireland and Italy have done the last three years for example. This year we don't have a Tier One game outside of the RWC, but the three there obviously makes up for it. I can't remember the last time Romania played a Tier One side outside of the RWC, and Georgia have only recently been getting games.

 

[goodNumber10]

Italy are competition for the rest of the Six Nations, but the lack of funding hampers their progression

again, someone correct me if i'm wrong but they are no worse funded than Scotland or Ireland, it's just the money doesn't go to the right places.

- - - Updated - - -

I think that's only the PI's who get the autumn tests consistently. Canada haven't played a Tier One opponent in the autumn since 2008 (aside from the RWC in 2011). We usually average one inbound here in the spring(some years two, other's zero), Scotland, Ireland and Italy have done the last three years for example. This year we don't have a Tier One game outside of the RWC, but the three there obviously makes up for it. I can't remember the last time Romania played a Tier One side outside of the RWC, and Georgia have only recently been getting games.

fair enough, i stand corrected... i thought there was a whole change a few years ago to make tier 1's tour pacific islands etc... must be remembering ti wrong.

 

[smartcooky]

Changleng brothers?

I didn't realised they were Scots. Doh!

Malcolm was only a Touch Judge at the 2007 RWC, and only a couple of tests before retiring in 2008

David has never refereed internationally.

 

[goodNumber10]

Carlo Damasco? They also have a promising new guy, Marius Mitrea

Meanwhile, when was the last time a Scottish referee was on the international panel... Jim Fleming in 1999? He was the last Scottish referee to be selected on a RWC panel. Even Argentina has had a RWC referee more recently than that (Pablo DeLuca, 2003), and Carlo Damasco was an AR at the 2011 event.

------

Italy's biggest problem, both in player and referee production, is the poor standard of its domestic competition. the former Super 10., now known as the "National Championship of Excellence" is anything but.

again you're right they've never produced a ref who's reffed a top tier tournament...

 

[smartcooky]

I really would like to see teams like New Zealand and Australia playing Georgia or Russia in the Autumn Internationals, but I can't see it happening because one of the 6N teams are going to have to give up their moneymaker matches to make that happen. Having it as a 4th Autumn International might be possible but it would be outside the Test Window and these teams will struggle to have players released by their Clubs.

One possible idea would be for World Rugby to help fund a short tour by Georgia to a SANZAR country during the June Tours for matches against the Super Rugby sides during the June tests. I don't know about the other SANZAR teams, but NZ franchises are always on the lookout for a meaningful match to keep them ticking over during the June Tour break. IMO, NZ Super Rugby sides, even without their All Blacks, would be more than a match for Georgia. When Wales are here in NZ on their three match tour in 2016, Georgia could be here too for matches against the Crusaders, the Hurricanes and the Chiefs over the same three weekends.

 

[j'nuh]

I really would like to see teams like New Zealand and Australia playing Georgia or Russia in the Autumn Internationals, but I can't see it happening because one of the 6N teams are going to have to give up their moneymaker matches to make that happen. Having it as a 4th Autumn International might be possible but it would be outside the Test Window and these teams will struggle to have players released by their Clubs.

You're shifting the blame of the New Zealand Autumn International scheduling onto Six Nations teams?

I'm not entirely certain of the process behind international scheduling, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't involve the Six Nations teams deciding who the SANZAR teams should play...

 

[smartcooky]

You're shifting the blame of the New Zealand Autumn International scheduling onto Six Nations teams?

I'm not entirely certain of the process behind international scheduling, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't involve the Six Nations teams deciding who the SANZAR teams should play...

No, I'm just stating the obvious. The official window only allows for three matches, and those matches are arranged by the unions concerned along with World Rugby.

New Zealand, Australia and South Africa are big money-spinners for the 6N teams, and they all want a piece of that pie. If any of the SANZAR teams were to play Georgia instead of, say Wales, then the WRU would have to give up one Millennium Stadium full house. I cannot see them doing that willingly.