Saracens taking Heineken Cup pool match to Belgium

[j_remos]

You're a Saracens season ticket holder. You've put up with having to play your rugby in Watford for the last 14 years, despite supposedly being from St. Albans. You've put up with numerous games being moved to Wembley where the atmosphere has been abject and you're putting up with the team essentially going on tour for the first half of the season because they have no real home ground. You're guaranteed 3 home games this season against European competition. Oh wait, no you're not, they've decided to go and move the game across the sea to Belgium. Hooray.

In my eyes Saracens are one of the worst clubs in professional rugby. The have absolutely no regard for their fans and seem intent on selling themselves for the quick buck at every opportunity. If Leinster started behaving the way Saracens do I'd have to think very hard about continuing to support them.

Seconded.

I know they dont want to waste more time on there watford fanbase but they do need to think about filling copthal as quickly as possible because building a fanbase at a half empty stadium is pretty tricky. If they spent the first half of the year playing as close to there as possible they might just pick up a few fans this year rather than next.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Snoop, what do you think's more important - a support base in your home city, or a support base in another country?

Whatever makes the most money and helps the club survive is the most important. Saracens believe "first mover advantage" in other territories like Belgium and the USA will bring riches to the club. It remains to be seen if they're right but I don't think they should be faulted for trying.

@Feic
There's shag all difference between Leinster and Saracens. In the early part of the last decade, Leinster played a bunch of games in a half empty Lansdowne Rd with an antiseptic atmosphere to bring in more money. The changed the colour of their shirt for sponsorship reasons (BoI's "blue magic" campaign) for more money. They moved from their traditional home in Donnybrook to a then ill equipped equestrian arena for more money. They're playing a game in Tallaght in a few weeks for more money. Sarries, like Leinster, are trying to grow their brand. Getting 5,000 fans through the turnstyles won't pay the wages of Chris Ashton et al.

If I'm a Saracens fan, I'm delighted with the direction of the club. Obviously I'd prefer home games to be just that but if a game in Brussels, Cape Town or wherever is the price to be paid for Premiership success over traditional mid table obscurity, it's well worth it.

 

[Feicarsinn]

@Feic
There's shag all difference between Leinster and Saracens. In the early part of the last decade, Leinster played a bunch of games in a half empty Lansdowne Rd with an antiseptic atmosphere to bring in more money. The changed the colour of their shirt for sponsorship reasons (BoI's "blue magic" campaign) for more money. They moved from their traditional home in Donnybrook to a then ill equipped equestrian arena for more money. They're playing a game in Tallaght in a few weeks for more money. Sarries, like Leinster, are trying to grow their brand. Getting 5,000 fans through the turnstyles won't pay the wages of Chris Ashton et al.

I disagree. While I agree that the colour change was a bad move, you can't compare Leinster playing in the RDS, Lansdowne Road and Tallaght with Saracens playing in Belguim. Firstly, the move from Donnybrook was inevitable. There was no feasible way to have the only pro rugby team in the nation's capital playing in a 5,000 seater ground with zero room for expansion. The RDS is about a 15 minute walk from Donnybrook and comes with better parking and transport links. That's hardly the same as moving your home games 250 miles overseas now. The same argument can be made of moving games to Lansdowne.

Essentially, this:

is not the same as this:

Now, with regard to the Tallaght games. Firstly, Tallaght stadium is still in Leinster. You could drive to the stadium as easily as you could to Donnybrook or Sandymount. There are a lot of Leinster fans in Tallaght and west Dublin. Trying to improve brand recognition in your area is a bit different to taking home games away from your own fans. Secondly, you're not comparing like with like. You can't pretend that a pre season friendly against Gloucester is of the same value as a Heineken Cup game against Racing. Would you be thrilled if Leinster moved the Clermont game to Germany?

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Would you be thrilled if Leinster moved the Clermont game to Germany?

Yes. I've never been to Germany and it'd be a great excuse to go! Looking at the big picture, if it got Leinster a load of cash and 30,000+ potential new fans who'll keep buying Leinster gear, increased TV exposure of the sport in that country and helped the development of German rugby (even in a small way) I'd be delighted.

Moving games from Watford to Wembley or Barnet is very similar to Leinster moving home games to the Aviva Stadium or the RDS. It's the same city. Creating event in Wembley is helping Saraens get their name out there and boosting their profile. Donnybrook became much to small for Leinster but that's because of progressive brand expansion which brought thousands of new fans. That's what Saracens are trying in my opinion.

I can understand the criticism Sarries are getting in the short term (from fans of other teams mostly) but think their long term strategy is to be commended. I want rugby to be a global sport. Saracens see the big picture too.

 

[BZHopenside]

They're trying to do the Manchester United thing and become the first team that rugby-ignorant Americans learn about.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Yes. I've never been to Germany and it'd be a great excuse to go! Looking at the big picture, if it got Leinster a load of cash and 30,000+ potential new fans who'll keep buying Leinster gear, increased TV exposure of the sport in that country and helped the development of German rugby (even in a small way) I'd be delighted.

Moving games from Watford to Wembley or Barnet is very similar to Leinster moving home games to the Aviva Stadium or the RDS. It's the same city. Creating event in Wembley is helping Saraens get their name out there and boosting their profile. Donnybrook became much to small for Leinster but that's because of progressive brand expansion which brought thousands of new fans. That's what Saracens are trying in my opinion.

I can understand the criticism Sarries are getting in the short term (from fans of other teams mostly) but think their long term strategy is to be commended. I want rugby to be a global sport. Saracens see the big picture too.

I can't condone using Heineken Cup matches to expand the brand. To me, it's turning your back on your real fans in favour of the quick buck. Even the big footy teams don't do that. If you want to try and generate interest in a team do it with a pre season tour, not with the most important games of the season.

A fair comparison is the NFL games they've held in London over the past couple of years. While these have been well attended, have they generated any significant increase in brand awareness for the teams involved this side of the Atlantic? Not really, I can't even remember who played. I imagine the Saracens game will have a similar effect. These kind of gimmicks don't really have a long term effect, especially in a country where the sport isn't all that popular.

If Saracens must persist down this line, why can't they do it with a pre season game, like Munster playing the States before the 2007 WC?

 

[TrueSlawter]

I can't condone using Heineken Cup matches to expand the brand. To me, it's turning your back on your real fans in favour of the quick buck. Even the big footy teams don't do that. If you want to try and generate interest in a team do it with a pre season tour, not with the most important games of the season.

A fair comparison is the NFL games they've held in London over the past couple of years. While these have been well attended, have they generated any significant increase in brand awareness for the teams involved this side of the Atlantic? Not really, I can't even remember who played. I imagine the Saracens game will have a similar effect. These kind of gimmicks don't really have a long term effect, especially in a country where the sport isn't all that popular.

If Saracens must persist down this line, why can't they do it with a pre season game, like Munster playing the States before the 2007 WC?

The NFL games havent created a huge buzz regarding the teams to those who didnt already follow NFL but it promoted the whole NFL.. It gives people a insight to the sport and if they like it its all good they can then watch a few more games on TV (where you can) and then mabey follow a team or w/e. I agree moving a Heineken cup game shouldnt be done as it kinda spits in the face of fans but moving a pre-season or even a early league game I dont see a huge issue with tbh.

Also I dont see that a game with a high profile club will create a buzz for local sides, they are more likely to start paying a interest to rugby in general and Sarries etc. thus why uk based gridiron hasnt really kicked off just down to the fact the NFL comes here every year

 

[BZHopenside]

It's all for naught though if the host countries can't reliably get games on tv. In the States, you can get the Premiership, Heineken Cup, and Pro12, but it's really expensive and complicated to get all the extra pay tv required. Rugby needs to find a way to get beyond super niche coverage in expanding markets.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

I can't condone using Heineken Cup matches to expand the brand. To me, it's turning your back on your real fans in favour of the quick buck. Even the big footy teams don't do that. If you want to try and generate interest in a team do it with a pre season tour, not with the most important games of the season.

I don't know. To me Perpignan playing in Barcelona, Biarritz playing in San Sebastian, Bourgoin playing in Geneva and Stade Francais organising a match in Brussels was perfectly fine in the name of expanding the appeal of the tournament into new territories. Why not Saracens in Brussels then?

Soccer can get away with preseason tours in far flung places because of the massive global appeal of the Premier League, Barcelona, Real Madrid, Bayern Munchen and the big Italian teams. Rugby doesn't have the pulling power to send second rate teams on tour and draw big money.

A fair comparison is the NFL games they've held in London over the past couple of years. While these have been well attended, have they generated any significant increase in brand awareness for the teams involved this side of the Atlantic? Not really, I can't even remember who played. I imagine the Saracens game will have a similar effect. These kind of gimmicks don't really have a long term effect, especially in a country where the sport isn't all that popular.

Since the NFL have started playing regular season games in London, the Super Bowl has been shown on the BBC and there's a live game each weekend on Channel 4/5. TV rights packages have increased massively. There's talk of an expansion franchise in London in the not too distant future. I'd call that a massive success.

If Saracens must persist down this line, why can't they do it with a pre season game, like Munster playing the States before the 2007 WC?

Because nobody would care. People aren't stupid. If there's nothing riding on a game, there's no interest in it. Again using the NFL as an example, they stopped playing preseason games in Europe because nbody cared and NFL Europe was an unmitigated disaster which folded a few years ago. People want to see the best, not some watered down product.

 

[Feicarsinn]

I don't know. To me Perpignan playing in Barcelona, Biarritz playing in San Sebastian, Bourgoin playing in Geneva and Stade Francais organising a match in Brussels was perfectly fine in the name of expanding the appeal of the tournament into new territories. Why not Saracens in Brussels then?

Soccer can get away with preseason tours in far flung places because of the massive global appeal of the Premier League, Barcelona, Real Madrid, Bayern Munchen and the big Italian teams. Rugby doesn't have the pulling power to send second rate teams on tour and draw big money.


Since the NFL have started playing regular season games in London, the Super Bowl has been shown on the BBC and there's a live game each weekend on Channel 4/5. TV rights packages have increased massively. There's talk of an expansion franchise in London in the not too distant future. I'd call that a massive success.


Because nobody would care. People aren't stupid. If there's nothing riding on a game, there's no interest in it. Again using the NFL as an example, they stopped playing preseason games in Europe because nbody cared and NFL Europe was an unmitigated disaster which folded a few years ago. People want to see the best, not some watered down product.

I get what you're saying, but the major stumbling block is that whatever the advantages of playing matches abroad (and we'll have to disagree on the overall effects of that), it's still a kick in the teeth for fans. Here are a few quotes from the Saracens fans forum:

Just hate this idea. We're becoming a laughing stock off the pitch. ​

My initial reaction is that the management are just showing that they don't consider the fans to be remotely important to the club. Putting premiership and HC games out of reach of the vast majority of fans is taking the pi$$.​

I kinda hope it happens is the disaster that I expect it to be and it thus doesn't happen again, the concept buried forever​

 

[Nielsch]

People hoping for a disaster probably won't get their way. The Stade Français - Ulster match organized in Brussels a couple of years ago sold over 30,000 tickets before it was cancelled. Combined with the tickets that would have been sold on match day, I'd call that a big success. I don't know why Saracens - Racing Metro would do any worse.

I'll certainly be there. Just like last time, when Brussels was covered with 10 inches of snow.

 

[Teh Mite]

Sarries season ticket holders should be hacked off about this. Smacks of "pandering to new business while having disregard for existing customers".

 

[Twebby]

Sarries season ticket holders should be hacked off about this. Smacks of "pandering to new business while having disregard for existing customers".

Sponsored by Sky.

 

[Peat]

Yes. I've never been to Germany and it'd be a great excuse to go! Looking at the big picture, if it got Leinster a load of cash and 30,000+ potential new fans who'll keep buying Leinster gear, increased TV exposure of the sport in that country and helped the development of German rugby (even in a small way) I'd be delighted.

Moving games from Watford to Wembley or Barnet is very similar to Leinster moving home games to the Aviva Stadium or the RDS. It's the same city. Creating event in Wembley is helping Saraens get their name out there and boosting their profile. Donnybrook became much to small for Leinster but that's because of progressive brand expansion which brought thousands of new fans. That's what Saracens are trying in my opinion.

I can understand the criticism Sarries are getting in the short term (from fans of other teams mostly) but think their long term strategy is to be commended. I want rugby to be a global sport. Saracens see the big picture too.

Watford's not in London. In fact, the fact they're coming back to London is one of the few pluses to their name at the moment.

End of the day I'd like to support a London club. If there had been one not guilty of massive cheating back when I got seriously into rugby, it's quite possible I'd not be an Ulster fan now. My vote, my pound, my loyalty is up for auction here. Sarries would have been a fairly tempting option in that Barnet's a fairly straight forwards journey for me. However, I won't be going now. I dislike the principles of any club that values this sort of stunt over its fanbase. I'm not sure I'm born to be a Quins fan, but I'm edging that way. Because it certainly going to be any of the others.

For all this talk of brand expansion, Sarries still get sub-6k crowds to some of their games. When you consider their league position, and that Quins didn't have an attendance below 10k, it would suggest to me that Saracens should be looking at some fairly hardcore profile boosting and brand expansion at home first and foremost. Their owners can't bankroll them forever.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

it would suggest to me that Saracens should be looking at some fairly hardcore profile boosting and brand expansion at home first and foremost.

Which they do by playing games in Wembley. Didn't they play a friendly in the City last season too? I could be mistaken on that. Signing a bunch of England and South Africa internationals helps their brand recognition too. Playing in Brussels is merely another step towards boosting their profile.

My vote, my pound, my loyalty is up for auction here.

Saracens are chasing fans just like you in London/the London Metropolitan area, Milton Keynes, Cape Town, Brussels and other places. If they don't get your money, they'll get someone elses.

 

[Nielsch]

And it's not just Brussels. When a high profile team like Saracens takes a game to Brussels, it's sure to attract a lot of rugby fans from all over Belgium and the Netherlands.

 

[Teh Mite]

Which they do by playing games in Wembley. Didn't they play a friendly in the City last season too? I could be mistaken on that. Signing a bunch of England and South Africa internationals helps their brand recognition too. Playing in Brussels is merely another step towards boosting their profile.


Saracens are chasing fans just like you in London/the London Metropolitan area, Milton Keynes Cape Town, Brussels and other places. If they don't get your money, they'll get someone elses.

If that example is anything to go by, a place of existence is their only current objective - saints are running the mk fixture (and taking most of the profits from ticket sales too boot). I half suspect its the same score with some of the other stroling minstrel fixtures.

 

[Amiga500]

As the adage goes... where in London is Saracens?


They are a nomad team, so don't be surprised if they act like it.

 

[Teh Mite]

As the adage goes... where in London is Saracens?


They are a nomad team, so don't be surprised if they act like it.

St. Albans, if we're being fussy.

 

[Tony Manx]

I don't know. To me Perpignan playing in Barcelona, Biarritz playing in San Sebastian, Bourgoin playing in Geneva and Stade Francais organising a match in Brussels was perfectly fine in the name of expanding the appeal of the tournament into new territories. Why not Saracens in Brussels then?

Soccer can get away with preseason tours in far flung places because of the massive global appeal of the Premier League, Barcelona, Real Madrid, Bayern Munchen and the big Italian teams. Rugby doesn't have the pulling power to send second rate teams on tour and draw big money.


Since the NFL have started playing regular season games in London, the Super Bowl has been shown on the BBC and there's a live game each weekend on Channel 4/5. TV rights packages have increased massively. There's talk of an expansion franchise in London in the not too distant future. I'd call that a massive success.


Because nobody would care. People aren't stupid. If there's nothing riding on a game, there's no interest in it. Again using the NFL as an example, they stopped playing preseason games in Europe because nbody cared and NFL Europe was an unmitigated disaster which folded a few years ago. People want to see the best, not some watered down product.

1. Do not like Biarritz's matches in San Sebastian and like many BO supporters do not go! I do not not condone any teams using these away grounds for home fixtures even though the prices charged, ie Wembley Saracens matches, are lowered to almost nothing to ensure the grounds are filled with so called supporters...

2. NFL games in London did not introduce games to TV.........I had American Cup Final parties back in the 1980's to watch them on TV live but we all got bored as there were too many breaks and everyone got drunk and fell asleep as much with the beer as the "sport"!!

3. "Nobody would care....." if these so called supporters were at all interested in rugby they would attend pre season friendlies *from all over Belgium and the Netherlands" just to get a glimpse of the stars of the game in the flesh!!!