[RWC2023 QF3] England vs Fiji (15/10/2023)

[dirty harry]

I think to clarify, Fiji dont kick well. It's just never been part of their game. They have kicked a lot more this RWC but I don't think it's benefitted then. By putting Smith at fullback we are essentially daring them to kick, taking them away from their much stronger running, which I think BPM mentions above, is the much greater threat, and likely to be the best way they have to beat England. We shall see tomorrow what actually occurs.

I dont think any of you have truly watched Fiji, their kicking game has been the catalyst for all their best work.

Out of hand theyve kicked incredibly well, defensively but also now in transition.

They have run less ball, run from deep less, passed outside 12 less AND made far far less errors ball in hand than any RWC before, and that is down, mostly to a good kicking game!

Please go and re watch the games, I have. It's no longer a niaive Fiji you can capitalise off stupid errors, risky offload etc, it's a Fiji that prioritises pressure.

 

[BPM]

And I don't think you've truly watched Marcus Smith. You criticise him at every opportunity. Some of it is fair, some of it is lazy assumption and some of it is complete invention.

When he tears Wales a new one some time, I'll be sure to remind you.

No-one is claiming he's a brilliant defender, but he's actually a solid tackler and far braver than you give him credit for. Maybe you've got him confused with Jacob Umaga?

 

[dirty harry]

And I don't think you've truly watched Marcus Smith. You criticise him at every opportunity. Some of it is fair, some of it is lazy assumption and some of it is complete invention.

When he tears Wales a new one some time, I'll be sure to remind you.

No-one is claiming he's a brilliant defender, but he's actually a solid tackler and far braver than you give him credit for. Maybe you've got him confused with Jacob Umaga?

When have I criticised his abilities ball in hand at 10? I really like him, but as an opposition supporter I want to see his name on the team sheet all day over Farrell and Ford!

I dont know why you want to die on the hill that he is a good enough defender to play 15 in a rugby world cup quarter, we all know he isnt. Has agile, hes quick over 5m, but he doesnt have high end pace, he isnt a confident defender, to anoint that coaches feel the need to hide him in wider channels in games, at club level too.

IMo opinion hes very similar to Jarod Evan's, cracking ball in hand but he isnt going to be good enough long term. Hes a typical issue in this England team, there are no stand outs, there are headaches everywhere and there is a lot of pressure on coaches to make the public happy by shoe horning square pegs into round holes.

England need to pick a long term player in each position and committ to them, with the exception of standouts short term.

Either Smith is your 10, or hes not. If hes not good enough to start 10, drop him. He isnt the superstar that can win a game from nowhere, hes just the most attacking player England can find in what is let's be honest a limited backline.

 

[dirty harry]

Just to clarify, so you all dont think I have woken up and chosen violence lol

I wish England all the luck in the world tomorrow, I'm rooting for an all European semi lineup, I'd love to see Ireland v Wales and England v (ok I care less about this semi finalist lol).

I will also be cheering you on from a sunny Cardiff!

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

When have I criticised his abilities ball in hand at 10? I really like him, but as an opposition supporter I want to see his name on the team sheet all day over Farrell and Ford!

I dont know why you want to die on the hill that he is a good enough defender to play 15 in a rugby world cup quarter, we all know he isnt. Has agile, hes quick over 5m, but he doesnt have high end pace, he isnt a confident defender, to anoint that coaches feel the need to hide him in wider channels in games, at club level too.

IMo opinion hes very similar to Jarod Evan's, cracking ball in hand but he isnt going to be good enough long term. Hes a typical issue in this England team, there are no stand outs, there are headaches everywhere and there is a lot of pressure on coaches to make the public happy by shoe horning square pegs into round holes.

England need to pick a long term player in each position and committ to them, with the exception of standouts short term.

Either Smith is your 10, or hes not. If hes not good enough to start 10, drop him. He isnt the superstar that can win a game from nowhere, hes just the most attacking player England can find in what is let's be honest a limited backline.

I'm curious if you've even watched any of the England games? Stewards defence this World Cup has been very poor. It's his positioning and footwork letting him down, time after time.

Smiths defence has been on par with the rest of the team. Not great but his one on one is way better than steward.

I'm not saying steward is an international level FB, but Steward isn't. He just doesn't have the top level skills. Yes he can catch a high ball, wow, we've got Daly, Malins, Arundell and May who can all catch a high ball and offer way more else at FB.

 

[dirty harry]

I'm curious if you've even watched any of the England games? Stewards defence this World Cup has been very poor. It's his positioning and footwork letting him down, time after time.

Smiths defence has been on par with the rest of the team. Not great but his one on one is way better than steward.

I'm not saying steward is an international level FB, but Steward isn't. He just doesn't have the top level skills. Yes he can catch a high ball, wow, we've got Daly, Malins, Arundell and May who can all catch a high ball and offer way more else at FB.

are you seriously suggesting that:

1. Steward has been below the rest of the English backs defensive standard?

2. Daly, Malins, Arundell and May are better FB options that Steward?

If so this is where we part ways, sense has left the building!

 

[Jimbo]

are you seriously suggesting that:

1. Steward has been below the rest of the English backs defensive standard?

2. Daly, Malins, Arundell and May are better FB options that Steward?

If so this is where we part ways, sense has left the building!

Steward has not been great, caught out even under the high ball, I'm unwilling to say other options are in general better FBs, what I will say is that If we agree Steward hasn't been great defensively nd the other options are not significantly worse in that area but offer a lot more ball in hand then that needs heavily factoring in, as does the fact that the group lack attacking shape nd I genuinely think here and now, 15 is best served position to do that, Steward doesn't from what I've seen have that in his locker or the speed to execute it.

 

[Dean Cooperfield-West]

I think the problem is not deciding on a player and sticking with them. Every teams seem to be fitting Farrell, Ford and Smith in somehow without any thought of whether or not they're the best people for that position.

Pick the position, and then develop one or two consistent first choice players for it

 

[dirty harry]

Steward has not been great, caught out even under the high ball, I'm unwilling to say other options are in general better FBs, what I will say is that If we agree Steward hasn't been great defensively nd the other options are not significantly worse in that area but offer a lot more ball in hand then that needs heavily factoring in, as does the fact that the group lack attacking shape nd I genuinely think here and now, 15 is best served position to do that, Steward doesn't from what I've seen have that in his locker or the speed to execute it.

I can think of 2 large errors Steward has made in this RWC, and I have seen every game.

Off the top of my head the chip through central in midfield by Japan Steward read late, and let it bounce and could've resulted in Japan try.

And against Samoa biting in while in the line because McFarland had George's outside shoulder, this led to Samoas try (although May's attempt of a cover tackle after the break was nothing short of an embarrassment).

Outside of that there has maybe been a few positional issues.

He has made a try saving tackle v Samoa, Scored v Japan cross field kick, made a try saving catch v Argentina (arguably), and has been involved in the build up of 2 other tries.


I have Steward as up there with best performing backs for England, however I recognise that's a low standard currently.

I'm going to argue against my point for a sec, and the only thing I can think of, is that SB wants a 2nd ball playing option, and is happy to give Smith free reign in attack, with the confidence that when attacking deep Daly provides the cover, or Fiji arent as big a threat in transition from deep because they tend not to counter attack wildly anymore.

 

[Jimbo]

I can think of 2 large errors Steward has made in this RWC, and I have seen every game.

Off the top of my head the chip through central in midfield by Japan Steward read late, and let it bounce and could've resulted in Japan try.

And against Samoa biting in while in the line because McFarland had George's outside shoulder, this led to Samoas try (although May's attempt of a cover tackle after the break was nothing short of an embarrassment).

Outside of that there has maybe been a few positional issues.

He has made a try saving tackle v Samoa, Scored v Japan cross field kick, made a try saving catch v Argentina (arguably), and has been involved in the build up of 2 other tries.


I have Steward as up there with best performing backs for England, however I recognise that's a low standard currently.

I'm going to argue against my point for a sec, and the only thing I can think of, is that SB wants a 2nd ball playing option, and is happy to give Smith free reign in attack, with the confidence that when attacking deep Daly provides the cover, or Fiji arent as big a threat in transition from deep because they tend not to counter attack wildly anymore.

my thoughts on him go back further than just this WC to be honest , I just think he's exceptionally limited due to his lack of pace, in the right setup he could work much better to be fair but in the current squad I don't think he offers enough, his positioning simply is not what it needs to be given his lack of pace has to be pin point to get anywhere near compensating for it, at this point focusing solely on the current squad something needs to come from somewhere when smith has come on at FB England have started to play having spent most of the game to that point looking pedestrian, that's not all on Stewart by any means. The positional awareness issue appears to be pretty underplayed in the warm ups (if memory serves) he got a yellow for a tackle in the air, firstly if he had the pace or positional awareness he probably wouldn't have got there late and it wouldn't have been a YC, again on Samoas try line if he had any gas he could have atleast got himself in a position to compete and put pressure on the catch, that Sage advert from BH about being slow on the turn also seems to be tailored to Steward. Its being widely accepted that despite Alex Goodes trophy cabinet his lack of pace was the main factor holding him back internationally but somehow this doesn't apply to Steward.

 

[dirty harry]

my thoughts on him go back further than just this WC to be honest , I just think he's exceptionally limited due to his lack of pace, in the right setup he could work much better to be fair but in the current squad I don't think he offers enough, his positioning simply is not what it needs to be given his lack of pace has to be pin point to get anywhere near compensating for it, at this point focusing solely on the current squad something needs to come from somewhere when smith has come on at FB England have started to play having spent most of the game to that point looking pedestrian, that's not all on Stewart by any means. The positional awareness issue appears to be pretty underplayed in the warm ups (if memory serves) he got a yellow for a tackle in the air, firstly if he had the pace or positional awareness he probably wouldn't have got there late and it wouldn't have been a YC, again on Samoas try line if he had any gas he could have atleast got himself in a position to compete and put pressure on the catch, that Sage advert from BH about being slow on the turn also seems to be tailored to Steward. Its being widely accepted that despite Alex Goodes trophy cabinet his lack of pace was the main factor holding him back internationally but somehow this doesn't apply to Steward.

I dont think it's fairto blame him for the cross field Samoa try, he is shallow because the entire line is, he had 2 attackers in front of him, the widest 5 yards outside, there is very little Steward could do there. Arguably hes a few inches from disrupting that kick, maybe a world class William's, Keenan, or Barrett gets there? I dont know that's harsh.

I get he isnt quick, or agile, but if there was anyone worthy of the place I'd agree, i just feel like SB has succumbed to pressure and underestimated a Fiji team averaging 24 kicks per game, and 8 attacking kicks per game.

If I was Fiji I would be dropping bombs on Smith and sending radrada up to mop up the mess.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

In the FB argument everyone's getting het up about individual players' merits, largely overlooking the value of units - players understanding what others will do, instinctively understanding their running patterns, how to work best as a team to cover weaknesses etc. It's kind of important….

In the 6N Steward was paired with 3 separate wing combos:

Malins and OHC twice
Malins and Watson twice
Watson and Arundell

Precisely none of whom are playing any meaningful part in the RWC.

Then we move to the warm ups where he was paired with:

Malins and Coka
Arundell and Daly
Watson and Daly
Malins and May

So that's what, 7 separate wing combos in 9 games.

At the RWC he then gets further new combinations in May & Daly (twice!) and May & Marchant. So, a scarcely believable 9 combos in 12 games….and only Watson out through injury. That's just this year - and just starters before the disruptions of subs - beyond ludicrous!

No great surprise if Steward looks like his confidence is shot and needs to reintroduce his backside to his elbow.

And that's before you even think about the revolving **** show that's our midfield, which also has direct effects on the FB. Against Samoa it was a defensive sieve, while kicking so much gives few attacking chances - we saw what Steward can do in the build up to Chessum's try.

That's not a backdrop to encourage high performance - you'd need to be the love child of Serge Blanco and Christian Cullen to cope with that. Steward's not, and nor's Smith.

Smith may get away with it tomorrow, but we're basically asking him for a Hail Mary. Still, at least in our considered, detailed preparation, in his only ever start at FB Smith was paired with…… Arundell and Malins neither of whom is even in the 23.

#bestofbritishmarcus

 

[dirty harry]

Ok ok ok, I have a solution.

You guys dont like him, he must have a Welsh granny somewhere, drop him from the squad and we'll pick him up, he will probably get 8 years of international rugby and a few world cup semis out of it,

Deal?

 

[Jimbo]

I dont think it's fairto blame him for the cross field Samoa try, he is shallow because the entire line is, he had 2 attackers in front of him, the widest 5 yards outside, there is very little Steward could do there. Arguably hes a few inches from disrupting that kick, maybe a world class William's, Keenan, or Barrett gets there? I dont know that's harsh.

I get he isnt quick, or agile, but if there was anyone worthy of the place I'd agree, i just feel like SB has succumbed to pressure and underestimated a Fiji team averaging 24 kicks per game, and 8 attacking kicks per game.

If I was Fiji I would be dropping bombs on Smith and sending radrada up to mop up the mess.

I get that but one could equally argue that if you were Fiji you would simply try and find a small amount of space and not worry about the counter attack, and put Steward under relentless pressure as he won't be there in ample time A because of the lack of pace and B because positional awareness, you'd also try and skin him at every opportunity, trouble is these limitations are now known with evidence supporting them so any good coach is going to try and exploit it, Smiths are currently unproven (more than likely though)

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Warming to my continuity theme let's say there are 6 units: front row, locks, back row, half backs, centres and back 3. We've played 13 tests this year so that's 78 separate unit selections each comprising just 2 or 3 players.

At a rough count I reckon the units starting tomorrow have just 16 starts out of the max 78.

And out of those 16 the locks account for half of them (and the only unit we saw start at all in the 6N).

Lock: 8
Centre: 4
Front Row: 2
Back Row: 2
Half Back: 0
Back 3: 0

There's obviously a bit of experimentation in RWC warm ups with injuries and suspensions etc playing their part as for all sides. But even so…..

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Thinking about it.
If Borthwick is going through this coaching mid life crisis of not knowing what style of rugby he wants to play then Smith is prob the best call up, gives the most options for different game plans if needed.

Steward is obviously a better 15 but he needs to be in a system and Borthwick just doesn't have that. At Tigers he did kick the crap out of it and outmuscle, he now knows England can't do that so has panicked

 

[dirty harry]

I get that but one could equally argue that if you were Fiji you would simply try and find a small amount of space and not worry about the counter attack, and put Steward under relentless pressure as he won't be there in ample time A because of the lack of pace and B because positional awareness, you'd also try and skin him at every opportunity, trouble is these limitations are now known with evidence supporting them so any good coach is going to try and exploit it, Smiths are currently unproven (more than likely though)

That's ludicrous, it would only count if England had no counter threat around him. You realise ability in the air is 75% positioning.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

We seem to have mostly focused on the risks of playing Smith at 15. For this game, I think it's potentially more about the potential rewards he will bring.

It suggests to me that our mindset is to play and impose ourselves on Fiji. If that's the case, I applaud the sentiment.

While I'm no fan of Farrell, he's most definitely better at 10 than he is at 12 and he's accustomed to playing with a second playmaker at 15. It actually looked quite decent against Chile and whilst Fiji are a huge step up, it looked as though it was a lot more comfortable playmaking partnership than it ever was with Smith at 10 and Farrell at 12. I have at least some hope that it will work.

From a defensive POV, Smith could be exposed, but I'm a lot more worried about Fiji ball-in-hand than I am about their kicking prowess. If they overdo it on the kicking, I don't see it being to their benefit.

I get this, but then what do we do 'if' we get to the semi - this doesn't feel like a solution that has legs to go the distance so I worry it kicks the can down the road. Smith has the talent to prove me wrong though, but if Steward or someone else is going to play there in a potential semi final, we may as well get on with that now

 

[Reiser99]

Honestly, this selection reminds of 2006 when Eriksson brought on Heskey. The coach has basically gone '**** it' I don't know what else to do.

(I can't find the heskey meme )

 

[Superalexmarket]

I have the feeling that England will be the world champion this year...against all odds