RWC Profile - Russia

[Thingimubob]

no of course not that's a stupid interpretation of my comment, only about 18% of the Welsh population speak Welsh so it's obviously not the main language, and English is listed as an official language of Wales anyway

let me be clearer then, if one can't speak one of the nations official languages one shouldn't be allowed to qualify for that nation

and your latter "point" about English speaking countries is miles away from my point

Actually you're wrong there, both Welsh and English are listed as the official languages of Wales. And in 2004 21.7% of the population could speak Welsh, and the number has certainly risen since then with the opening and growth of more Welsh medium primary and secondary schools. My school was one of them, think the number of students has tripled since '04, possible more. Don't think the numbers count the welsh speakers on the english side of the border or the students studying in England and abroad too. Makes sense for quite a few of the national team to speak Welsh too, especially with the emphasis on rugby in the schools. Plenty of players from Glan Taf in Cardiff have gone on to play for Cardiff and Wales (Jamie Roberts being one of them). Hoping to see a few from my school end up doing the same too, could do too seeing that they won the Welsh Cup final this year just a pity I missed out by a year on seeing it!

 

[Thingimubob]

Just realised you said 'an offical language' not 'the' official language

 

[TRF_Olyy]

On the Welsh-speaking tangent that we're on:
My Girlfriend's Aunt/Uncle/Cousins live in a little village in Wales, and the two cousins went to the same primary school - When the oldest cousin left the school it was taken over by a new headmaster and changed from an English speaking school to a Welsh speaking, so the youngest cousin is fluent in Welsh, whereas the rest of the family only know a handful of words

 

[Thingimubob]

On the Welsh-speaking tangent that we're on:
My Girlfriend's Aunt/Uncle/Cousins live in a little village in Wales, and the two cousins went to the same primary school - When the oldest cousin left the school it was taken over by a new headmaster and changed from an English speaking school to a Welsh speaking, so the youngest cousin is fluent in Welsh, whereas the rest of the family only know a handful of words

I haven't actually heard of a school being changed directly to Welsh, only of new one's being made. My old secondary school is only 10 years old now, and I know they're constructing a new primary school on part of the fields. Though most of the original buildings from my school were bought from the english-medium school next door to us, so I guess that's kind of similar.
Out of interest Olyy, you ever meet many people from the Pant-y-Celyn accomodation in Aber? They've got a bit of a reputation apparently

Anyway, on topic . Any Welsh people planning on heading to Dragons v Russia on the 17th or Ospreys v Russia on the 20th?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

There's a few players on the RL team I play for who were in Panty, but apart from that don't really know many/anyone that stayed in there - as you said though, their reputation precedes them
Being Welsh and a Union lad I presume Cymro knows a bit more about them than I

 

[Thingimubob]

There's a few players on the RL team I play for who were in Panty, but apart from that don't really know many/anyone that stayed in there - as you said though, their reputation precedes them
Being Welsh and a Union lad I presume Cymro knows a bit more about them than I

I have heard its a converted mental hospital, met a few of them in Edinburgh (Swansea Welsh society and Aber Celtic society both did trips up in the 6 Nations) and they were all legendary

 

[formerlyfastwing]

no of course not that's a stupid interpretation of my comment, only about 18% of the Welsh population speak Welsh so it's obviously not the main language, and English is listed as an official language of Wales anyway

let me be clearer then, if one can't speak one of the nations official languages one shouldn't be allowed to qualify for that nation

and your latter "point" about English speaking countries is miles away from my point

that was a bit of a drive by while I was at work......my appologies

 

[Melhor Time]

I just read Adam Byrnes speaks no Russian on this interview

in my opinion there is no way he should be able to qualify to play for Russia if he doesn't speak the language, for me the ability to be able to speak the language is the ultimate yardstick to judge how much of a "Russian" he is

I would never want somebody with distant connections to the nation I support (Wales) to come over and play for the national team without being able to speak the language fluently

I agree, unions must be forced to have players meet language standards if theya re to play for the internationa sie. I realized this a few years ago when watching Italy play. They had four Argentine players all speaking good Italian and a Kiwi too, Kane Robertson. But then there was Craig Gower´s whose Italian was rubbish. He simply was not able to talk to his teammates. What bothered me is that he had been in the team for a while already and was still not able to use Italian. This is where I think the laws should focus - a player, after a 12 month period in international rugby, should have to complete a language test if the language is different to his or her own native language.

The same applies to the haka. I think its wrong to have the haka when the players don´t know the language. They should all have to speak Maori if they are to do the dance too. Otherwise it defeats the point of it alltogether. Just like Craig Gower couldn´t sing anything during the Italian anthem.

The ethics that ruigby stands on are, in sports terms, really powerful and, unlike soccer, legitimate. Soccer is fominated by corruption and can only dream of the standards of rugby. Yet, rugby has things to work on. If Dan Carter can do the haka then he should speak good Maori..... however few All Blacks can even many of those who have played for the New Zealand Maori team.

 

[Feicarsinn]

 

[Thingimubob]

How exactly would you enforce mesures like that though Melhor? I can understand what you mean about players like Gower, always felt an effort should be made in cases like his. However, gets a bit murky when you get to teams like Wales Ireland and to an extent Scotland. Like it's been said in this thread, Wales has 2 offical languages (Welsh and Engllish), as far as I know both Northern Ireland and the Republic both have two (Irish Gaelic and English) and although Scottish Gaelic (again, as far as I know) isn;t an offical national language of Scotland, it's still recogniced as a regional language or something. Are you saying that players in these countries should speak all offical languages or just one of them?

I'm not even going to touch on your Haka arguement, as I don't believe I know enough about Moari and New Zealand culture to really and truly comment on this. You're risking opening one hell of a firestorm with that though

 

[Feicarsinn]

I'd like to point out that no one over here calls it Gaelic, tis always Irish whenever mentioned in English or Gaeilge in Irish (as Gaeilge if you will)

 

[Melhor Time]

How exactly would you enforce mesures like that though Melhor? I can understand what you mean about players like Gower, always felt an effort should be made in cases like his. However, gets a bit murky when you get to teams like Wales Ireland and to an extent Scotland. Like it's been said in this thread, Wales has 2 offical languages (Welsh and Engllish), as far as I know both Northern Ireland and the Republic both have two (Irish Gaelic and English) and although Scottish Gaelic (again, as far as I know) isn;t an offical national language of Scotland, it's still recogniced as a regional language or something. Are you saying that players in these countries should speak all offical languages or just one of them?

I think the union of the country can decide it but in the least the player should speak one lanaguage if the country is multi-lingual. If Wales want all players to speak Welsh then imports should also speak the language. Certainly Gavin Henson, amongst others, has had a lot to say about non-Welsh players in the side. The team should be Welsh and so no cases lik Adam Byrnes. For me, one language is fine but if the union wants to be more severe then that´d be perfectly acceptable. DTH van der Merwe, for instance, was born in South Africa but was in Canada for a fair period before making his test debut. I don´t know if his French is great or not but his English is and since it is one of the two official languages then he passes the test. In order to play for a country a player needs to represent the country. Pretty hard to if the player cannot speak one of the languages.

I find it bizzare that imported players are prevented from playing in the Aviva Premiership while Craig Gower plays for Italy. The imported guys speak English fluently but some outrageous law means clubs can field such a limited number of them unless they are from the Pacific Islands or South Africa, who despite being disadvantaged countries are rugby powers which defeats the purpose altogether.

 

[psychic duck]

I realized this a few years ago when watching Italy play. They had four Argentine players all speaking good Italian and a Kiwi too, Kane Robertson. But then there was Craig Gower´s whose Italian was rubbish. He simply was not able to talk to his teammates. What bothered me is that he had been in the team for a while already and was still not able to use Italian. This is where I think the laws should focus - a player, after a 12 month period in international rugby, should have to complete a language test if the language is different to his or her own native language.

The same applies to the haka. I think its wrong to have the haka when the players don´t know the language. They should all have to speak Maori if they are to do the dance too. Otherwise it defeats the point of it alltogether. Just like Craig Gower couldn´t sing anything during the Italian anthem.

Yes another example of this is David Smith (the Toulon winger), who was plucked out of a village in Samoa not speaking English and thrust quickly into the NZ 7's team (my source for this is not that reputable for this, so I apologize if it's wrong)

Meanwhile another Italy player, Luke McLean moved to Italy as a young adult and speaks Italian fluently and has said he feels more Italian than Australian should be an example of a player who I have no problem with playing for Italy, the Argentinians in Italy team all seem very Italian too, just look at the way Canale, Castro and Parisse sing the anthem

but as Melhor says, Craig Gower is an example of a player who shouldn't be allowed to play for Italy

How exactly would you enforce mesures like that though Melhor? I can understand what you mean about players like Gower, always felt an effort should be made in cases like his. However, gets a bit murky when you get to teams like Wales Ireland and to an extent Scotland. Like it's been said in this thread, Wales has 2 offical languages (Welsh and Engllish), as far as I know both Northern Ireland and the Republic both have two (Irish Gaelic and English) and although Scottish Gaelic (again, as far as I know) isn;t an offical national language of Scotland, it's still recogniced as a regional language or something. Are you saying that players in these countries should speak all offical languages or just one of them?

I think the union of the country can decide it but in the least the player should speak one lanaguage if the country is multi-lingual. DTH van der Merwe, for instance, was born in South Africa but was in Canada for a fair period before making his test debut. I don´t know if his French is great or not but his English is and since it is one of the two official languages then he passes the test. In order to play for a country a player needs to represent the country. Pretty hard to if the player cannot speak one of the languages

Melhor just said the exact response that matches mine to your question Thingimubob

 

[Thingimubob]

I think the union of the country can decide it but in the least the player should speak one lanaguage if the country is multi-lingual. If Wales want all players to speak Welsh then imports should also speak the language. Certainly Gavin Henson, amongst others, has had a lot to say about non-Welsh players in the side. The team should be Welsh and so no cases lik Adam Byrnes. For me, one language is fine but if the union wants to be more severe then that´d be perfectly acceptable. DTH van der Merwe, for instance, was born in South Africa but was in Canada for a fair period before making his test debut. I don´t know if his French is great or not but his English is and since it is one of the two official languages then he passes the test. In order to play for a country a player needs to represent the country. Pretty hard to if the player cannot speak one of the languages.

I find it bizzare that imported players are prevented from playing in the Aviva Premiership while Craig Gower plays for Italy. The imported guys speak English fluently but some outrageous law means clubs can field such a limited number of them unless they are from the Pacific Islands or South Africa, who despite being disadvantaged countries are rugby powers which defeats the purpose altogether.

I guess that's fair enough, I did however read an article about Adam Byrnes being selected for Russia. He said that his grandparents were Russian and he had always grown up with the Russian language around his household, so it's not as if he hasn't had any exposure at all to the language or culture. Something that you always have to take into account is with players like Byrnes is that since his family has moved out to a different country, there isn't as much need for Russian, and it simply won't get used. I would not be suprised if he maybe picked up a bit as a child, but lost it when he started going to school. Anyway, personally I have no problems with people like Byrnes or Gower who have family ties to their respective nations, though like I said, an effort should be made to learn the local language.

About that second bit, what exactly are the rules you're talking about? I've heard of them but don't know the exact rulings? I can understand the principle - trying to stop the Aviva becoming the same as what the football Premier League is, filled with foreign players which stifles local talent.

 

[Melhor Time]

what exactly are the rules you're talking about? I've heard of them but don't know the exact rulings? I can understand the principle - trying to stop the Aviva becoming the same as what the football Premier League is, filled with foreign players which stifles local talent.

The Kolpak ruling which means teams can only have two imported player in the matchday roster. Imported players does not apply to South Africa, Samoa, Fiji, Tonga, Romania or Georgia. But it does to non-EU teams and basically everyone who is not from Africa. So when there are players from Argentina, Canada and United States getting loads of game time for pro teams they are obviously very good, like Chris Wyles, Marcos Ayerza and Horacio Agulla in the Aviva Final for instance.