RWC 2011 The 3rd/4th place: Wales vs. Australia

[nickdnz]

Remember the old mantra of "The ball travels faster than the man"?

I'd be interested to know what the average velocity of passes are in pro rugby, I would say that the vast majority of passes travel at a greater velocity to 180 degrees of the player than what the player is moving at.

I get the point the video is making, but disagree with their implied absolutes that the ball will always travel forward relative to the pitch, even if passed backwards, and that a pass thrown forward when the passer is at full tilt is never going to be caught.

It's not saying that though. It's saying that passes which are relatively flat or slightly backwards will travel forwards relative to the pitch if the momentum of the ball carrier is great enough. Obviously if the player was moving slowly and the pass is fired back, it will go behind the player.

 

[dullonien]

I don't know if the IRB quite knows how relative velocity works.

That player does not throw the ball behind his head, he throws it forward and then runs under, covering more ground than the ball does - that it clearly a forward pass. If the IRB says otherwise then they are idiots. The player never propelled the ball backwards.

Likewise, the same goes for the first pass. The player passes it forward then runs past the ball, because he's travelling faster - he still propels it forward. The IRB needs to change its definition, because its explanation does not stand up.

Think you're a little confused. It's quite basic physics, just a pity I've forgotten the full formula to work it out, but Username's formula seems ok. Basically, the velocity that a player is running when (measured in m/s) means that the ball will travel forwards relative to the ground, by a distance which depends on the length of the pass.

If a player is running at say 1m/s (to make things easy), and the length of the pass results in the ball baing airborne for 1s (again to make things super easy), if the pass was flat, then the ball would travel forwards relative to the ground by 1m. The pass was not forward.

If the player passing the ball can continue on his path, then it's normally easy to judge that the ball did not get passed forwards as the passing player is still in front of the ball when it is caught. However when a player is tackled just after passing, then the crowd and ref often incorrectly call for a forward pass. The ref should look at the motion of the players hands, and not the motion of the ball, but this is tough. Overall, people will have to accept that mistakes will be made when forward passes are concerned, because the rule shouldn't be changed and the it's difficult for the ref and assistants to get it correct every time.

I'm not certain whether Hook's pass was really forward, but on first viewing it looked like it was, but I'd need to check again to make sure.

On another topic, Scrum V showed some combined stats for the entire tournament for Toby Faletau on last nights show. According to them he made 80 carries, and 83 tackles with zero missed. Excellent display from a 20 year old!

 

[RyotoTheDragon]

Think you're a little confused. It's quite basic physics, just a pity I've forgotten the full formula to work it out, but Username's formula seems ok. Basically, the velocity that a player is running when (measured in m/s) means that the ball will travel forwards relative to the ground, by a distance which depends on the length of the pass.

If a player is running at say 1m/s (to make things easy), and the length of the pass results in the ball baing airborne for 1s (again to make things super easy), if the pass was flat, then the ball would travel forwards relative to the ground by 1m. The pass was not forward.

If the player passing the ball can continue on his path, then it's normally easy to judge that the ball did not get passed forwards as the passing player is still in front of the ball when it is caught. However when a player is tackled just after passing, then the crowd and ref often incorrectly call for a forward pass. The ref should look at the motion of the players hands, and not the motion of the ball, but this is tough. Overall, people will have to accept that mistakes will be made when forward passes are concerned, because the rule shouldn't be changed and the it's difficult for the ref and assistants to get it correct every time.

I'm not certain whether Hook's pass was really forward, but on first viewing it looked like it was, but I'd need to check again to make sure.

On another topic, Scrum V showed some combined stats for the entire tournament for Toby Faletau on last nights show. According to them he made 80 carries, and 83 tackles with zero missed. Excellent display from a 20 year old!

it was forward, no need to check

just saying..

 

[no-1-rugby-fan]

Not the best game of rugby, think both teams wanted to be playing tomorrow.

 

[Sam91]

is that5 forward pass actually in dispute? williams deadset had to kick his leg out in front of it how the **** can you dispute that hahaha

 

[racingmetrofan]

Meh, for all of the hype and great play surrounding the Welsh, they failed to beat any team ranked higher than them. Arguably, despite paying well, they haven't improved their game at all since the World Cup started.

 

[TrueSlawter]

Meh, for all of the hype and great play surrounding the Welsh, they failed to beat any team ranked higher than them. Arguably, despite paying well, they haven't improved their game at all since the World Cup started.

Ireland were rated higher than Wales (Ireland were 6th, Wales 7th).. that's that whole point thrown out of the window

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

I'm allowed to throw the ball backwards and catch it again - so why can't I, if I'm running forward, throw the ball over an opposition player, and then run past them and catch it? As long as it lands in my hands it hasn't gone forwards, if we're using the relative displacement of the ball as the measurement.

According to the IRB's definition of what a forward pass is (assuming that video is correct), there would be nothing wrong with the above.

 

[dullonien]

I'm allowed to throw the ball backwards and catch it again - so why can't I, if I'm running forward, throw the ball over an opposition player, and then run past them and catch it? As long as it lands in my hands it hasn't gone forwards, if we're using the relative displacement of the ball as the measurement.

According to the IRB's definition of what a forward pass is (assuming that video is correct), there would be nothing wrong with the above.

Quite simply because you're not allowed to. It's against the rules plain and simple to throw it over the defense, in a similar way that knocking on the ball and kicking it before it hits the ground isn't allowed: pretty much identical to meaningly kicking the ball, but is judjed based on intent.

There shouldn't be any issue with this rule tbh. It's there to allow the game to flow, without it getting called back constantly for forward passes, surely this is a good thing? It would also be increadibly difficult for the players themselves to know when they've thrown a forward pass or not without stopping and working out the maths, because it they have passed it backwards. Just go out and give it a go with a mate. Get him to judge where you released the ball and where the ball landed when you're running at full pelt, and see how difficult it is to get it not to land in front of where you passed, I bet very.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Quite simply because you're not allowed to. It's against the rules plain and simple to throw it over the defense, in a similar way that knocking on the ball and kicking it before it hits the ground isn't allowed: pretty much identical to meaningly kicking the ball, but is judjed based on intent.

Yes but all you're doing is passing the ball backwards - I doubt you'd see the ref penalise you for tossing it backwards relative to the field, so why is this any different, when the ONLY measure is supposed to be its relative displacement?

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

I'm not suggesting that it should be legal, I'm just showing how stupid the rule is - it leaves itself open for exploitation.

 

[nickdnz]

I'm not suggesting that it should be legal, I'm just showing how stupid the rule is - it leaves itself open for exploitation.

I'm sure if you can find a way to pass the ball backwards relative to your momentum and somehow catch it forwards infront of where you threw it, then you'd have a point. As you probably can't, you don't.

 

[ranger]

I'm allowed to throw the ball backwards and catch it again - so why can't I, if I'm running forward, throw the ball over an opposition player, and then run past them and catch it? As long as it lands in my hands it hasn't gone forwards, if we're using the relative displacement of the ball as the measurement.

According to the IRB's definition of what a forward pass is (assuming that video is correct), there would be nothing wrong with the above.

Because you are not allowed to throw the ball forward.. this isnt a difficult concept.

The measure of whether a ball is thrown forward is taken by the action of the hands when the ball is passed. So if the ball comes out of the hands forward, then it is a forward pass. If the ball comes out of the hand backwards but drifts forward due to momentum, then it is fine.

If you throw a ball over a defending player, then the ball has come out of the hands forward,and it is deemed a throw forward. Whether you regather the ball or not doesn't matter as the initial action is illegal.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

I'm allowed to throw the ball straight up though - and with relative velocity it would move forwards, and I could catch it.

 

[donmcdazzle]

Because you are not allowed to throw the ball forward.. this isnt a difficult concept.

The measure of whether a ball is thrown forward is taken by the action of the hands when the ball is passed. So if the ball comes out of the hands forward, then it is a forward pass. If the ball comes out of the hand backwards but drifts forward due to momentum, then it is fine.

If you throw a ball over a defending player, then the ball has come out of the hands forward,and it is deemed a throw forward. Whether you regather the ball or not doesn't matter as the initial action is illegal.

What about when someone tries to catch it, juggles it forward and then regathers? That isn't a knock on so I can't see why throwing it forward and regathering would be called a forward pass?

 

[ranger]

I'm allowed to throw the ball straight up though - and with relative velocity it would move forwards, and I could catch it.

Try it. Its not as simple as you make it sound

What about when someone tries to catch it, juggles it forward and then regathers? That isn't a knock on so I can't see why throwing it forward and regathering would be called a forward pass?

Because they are different laws that are identified at different times..

DEFINITION: KNOCK-ON
A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.
'Forward' means towards the opposing team's dead ball line.

vs

DEFINITION: THROW FORWARD
A throw forward occurs when a player throws or passes the ball forward. 'Forward' means towards the opposing team's dead ball line.

The knock on law specifies that if a ball is accidentally (reading between the lines) knocked forward, the player has a chance to regather it. It is ruled a knock on once it goes forward and hits the ground or a player.

The throw forward law specifies that the guilty action occurs at the moment when the ball is thrown forward. So once it gets thrown forward, it is a whistle, no matter weather you juggle or catch it or anything.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Do you mean something like this ...

 

[ranger]

The way you decide whether it is thrown forward or not is the motion and direction of the hands. If you watch O'Driscolls hand it is facing his own goal line/ the sideline, not thrown forward = fair play.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Try it. Its not as simple as you make it sound

DEFINITION: KNOCK-ON
A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.
'Forward' means towards the opposing team's dead ball line.

vs

DEFINITION: THROW FORWARD
A throw forward occurs when a player throws or passes the ball forward. 'Forward' means towards the opposing team's dead ball line.

The knock on law specifies that if a ball is accidentally (reading between the lines) knocked forward, the player has a chance to regather it. It is ruled a knock on once it goes forward and hits the ground or a player.

The throw forward law specifies that the guilty action occurs at the moment when the ball is thrown forward. So once it gets thrown forward, it is a whistle, no matter weather you juggle or catch it or anything.

Firstly, I have tried it, it's pretty simple. Run, throw ball straight up, keep running, catch ball. I actually just went outside to make sure I wasn't just imagining how easy it was.

And it's interesting that in the definition for throw forward it mentions nothing about relative velocity, in fact it explicitly states towards the opposing team's dead ball line.

 

[ranger]

Firstly, I have tried it, it's pretty simple. Run, throw ball straight up, keep running, catch ball. I actually just went outside to make sure I wasn't just imagining how easy it was.

And it's interesting that in the definition for throw forward it mentions nothing about relative velocity, in fact it explicitly states towards the opposing team's dead ball line.

I still don't beleive that there isn't any forward motion in that passing action..

Also, while it doesn't mention anything about relative velocity, it doesn't need to because it doesnt say anything about the travel of the ball.

It says the ball can't be thrown in a forward direction

It doesn't say anything about the ball travelling in a forward direction

Imagine this scenario:
-There is a 500 km/h wind at your back
-you turn around and throw the ball as hard as you can behind you
-The wind picks up and carries the ball 50 metres forward

According to the letter of the law in this scenario, you did not throw the ball towards the opposing teams' dead ball line , so no throw forward occured. Yes, the ball did travel 50 metres forward, but there is nothing in the law that says the ball isn't allowed to travel forward..