Relegation/Promotion needed in 6 Nations

[sigesige00]

The fundamental problem in 6 Nations is that there is no relegation/promotion.
I think that a qualification tournament for 6 Nations is necessary. The winners of qualification face the bottom team of 6 Nations to get promotion.
Please tell me your ideas.

 

[Peat]

I was unaware there was a problem with the Six Nations.

 

[Patchey]

I was unaware there was a problem with the Six Nations.

Agreed.

Show me a European team outside of the Six Nations that can consistently do better than Italy and then we'll talk.

 

[Teh Mite]

He's back!

The fundamental problem with the 6 Nations is they're playing Rugby Union instead of Rugby League!

I think that a Different law book for 6 Nations is necessary. The winners of the tournament have to fight to the death with spears and fishing rods.

Please tell me your ideas.

 

[Joseph14]

Agreed.

Show me a European team outside of the Six Nations that can consistently do better than Italy and then we'll talk.

I think given the same opportunities that Georgia could reach Italy's level in time and quite possibly surpass it.

Don't see anything wrong with the 6 nations as it stands but I do think that those outside the tournament need something to aim for in the long term.

 

[SelimNiai]

Like any of this jokers ideas

No.

 

[tompaton]

Promotion-Relegation two-legged play-off every two years, on the basis of the combined championship results. It'll be years before likes of Georgia move up but the exposure and coverage they'll get in those two games will be vital in moving them forward.

Like I said though, having watched the opening weekend, I think it will be a while before Georgia move up.

 

[powerfulduck]

something will have to happen eventually to incorperate the ENC nations, otherwise the game risks stagnation in it's expansion. However as this weekend has shown with Italy's great result teams need sustained periods of exposure at this level. This is Italy's 13th tournament and they are improving but it's been slow at times & without over reacting it's entirely plausable they could lose the next 4 games. Would Italian rugby benefit a 2 year hiatus from 6N? I don't think so. A possible 7N's but that's a whole new can of worms.

I do feel for the ENC nations as it's a glass ceiling they're up against. I really believe Georgia & co need most inclusion in the traditional tours to help them develop.

 

[djwizard84]

Somebody said some days ago that there should be a real european trophy (i don't know if it was in this topic), but that could give a good chance to the lower european nations to have a possibility to play against the top nations.
In a four year basis the FIRA could develop a full home-away 6 nations tournament (in 2 years) and the year after or before a 12 to 18 teams eurpean trophy (3 weeks for 3 to 4 group games and the 2 weekends for semis and the final).
I mean, each region should create, at least, a continental tournament once each four years.

Perhaps

 

[Joony-k]

Georgia struggled against Belgium on Saturday. I like Georgia a lot as a Team but they are still not professional enough to compete with the 6 Nations teams. They need to keep improving and get some top quality rugby (Autumn internations etc) to help.

 

[psychic duck]

I see some people are doing kneejerk reactions based on one poor match for Georgia and one good one for Italy, and judging long term futures on it.

Georgia were poor for most of last year, and didn't impress at all against Belgium. However in 2010/2011, they were playing much better and won the ENC Grand Slam and would have seriously challenged the 6 Nations sides. And even did in the RWC, just unfortunately Kvirikashvili didn't bring his kicking boots with him and schedules were unkind playing England and Argentina after short turnarounds meant both pulled away after 65 minutes.

If anything, Georgia will get better in the future, not worse. Rugby has only just got more popular in recent times, and is now in the top 3 sports in the country. And they also have beaten Italy at age group level last year with 14 men.

Playing numbers in youngsters in Georgia are improving, and now the new generation of players born in the mid 1990's have beaten Italy at age grade level, and played rugby from a young age.

Also Italy's long term future certainly isn't that bright. If you look closely at their squad, there is a group of players who have been there for a decade or so now. The core of their team Parisse, Castrogiovanni, Zanni, Orquera, Canale, Bergamasco, Ghiraldini, Bortolami are all probably not going to reach much further than 2015, and they could face some a spate of retirements at once after that tournament and won't be easy to replace.

And their junior teams are by no means impressive. Their U20 team got relegated out of the Junior World Cup last year after losing to Fiji, and their U18 team lost to Georgia as I mentioned. Also their domestic sides in the Amlin Challenge Cup are dreadful on the pitch, and get some pitiful crowds. Whilst Treviso and Zebre get poor crowds too.

The bright spot for them is their international team gets great crowds, and are getting some results. But their are some issues at domestic level, youth level and grassroots that need to be sorted out for them to protect their future.

Also by the way, Italy's results in 1999 the year before they joined the 6 Nations were dreadful. Much worse than even Georgia's poor form these past 6 months. See some of them below ...

vs New Zealand - lost 101-3
vs Tonga - lost 28-25 (to a side that Georgia actually beat in RWC qualifying that year btw)
vs England - lost 67-7
vs Fiji - lost 50-32
vs South Africa - lost 101-0
vs South Africa - lost 74-3
vs Wales - lost 60-21

In my opinion, Italy and Scotland are put on a pedestal just because they are Tier 1 nations.

It was only back in June that Italy were outplayed by Canada, but luckily for them they had a scrum which demolished Canada and won. Similar story with Tonga as well. And Tonga, a side who never really looked dominant and only had close wins over Japan or USA last year, beat Scotland. And Scotland of course nearly lost to Romania at RWC 2011.

Gap between Tier 1 and Tier 2 isn't as large as many make out.

 

[powerfulduck]

I'm all for global expansion of rugby. I don't think any fan wouldn't like to see a situation where a WC is 20 or 24 teams where all have a shout of winning it. However development isn't something that happens overnight, granted teams will develop at different rates depending on various factors but any amendment to the 6N involving relegation is going to hamper the team that's going to 6N's B. Scotland I believe have Money trouble and 2 years outside the 6N would be a disaster. Likewise the gains Rugby has made in Italy in terms media attention, public support & financial benefit would suffer from the lack of competition. Look at italy's record over the past 12 years


Six Nations All-Time Table (2000–2012) [TABLE="class: wikitable"]
[TR]
[TH][/TH]
[TH]Pld[/TH]
[TH]W[/TH]
[TH]D[/TH]
[TH]L[/TH]
[TH]PF[/TH]
[TH]PA[/TH]
[TH]PD[/TH]
[TH]T[/TH]
[TH]Pts[/TH]
[TH]Champs[/TH]
[TH]GS[/TH]
[TH]TC[/TH]
[TH]WS[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"]

France[/TD]
[TD]65[/TD]
[TD]46[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]1725[/TD]
[TD]1133[/TD]
[TD]592[/TD]
[TD]169[/TD]
[TD]93[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]N/A[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"]

Ireland[/TD]
[TD]65[/TD]
[TD]44[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]1629[/TD]
[TD]1263[/TD]
[TD]366[/TD]
[TD]167[/TD]
[TD]89[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"]

England[/TD]
[TD]65[/TD]
[TD]43[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]21[/TD]
[TD]1829[/TD]
[TD]1014[/TD]
[TD]815[/TD]
[TD]195[/TD]
[TD]87[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"]

Wales[/TD]
[TD]65[/TD]
[TD]33[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]30[/TD]
[TD]1444[/TD]
[TD]1485[/TD]
[TD]-41[/TD]
[TD]133[/TD]
[TD]68[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"]

Scotland[/TD]
[TD]65[/TD]
[TD]16[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]47[/TD]
[TD]1038[/TD]
[TD]1627[/TD]
[TD]−589[/TD]
[TD]74[/TD]
[TD]34[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"]

Italy[/TD]
[TD]65[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]55[/TD]
[TD]960[/TD]
[TD]2103[/TD]
[TD]−1143[/TD]
[TD]77[/TD]
[TD]19[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]N/A[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


OK Scotland haven't exactly won many games in the past 12 years, but the For & against is the telling stat here, Italy have conceded an average of 32 points a game which show's their still not the finished article. Their improving as this weekends results shows but we shouldn't get carried away after one result. They need 3-4 years of consistently competing at the upper end of the 6N table to allow them to fully develop as a rugby nation before any threat to their 6N existence is acceptable.

A 7N's is a possibility but that will cause no end of problems with an already heavily congested calendar. An alternative suggestion would be that on aggregate the worst side in the 6N over 2 years has to forgo a lucrative SH tour and tour the best side from the ENC over two years. For example if Scotland are the worst side in the 6N from now until 2014 and Georgia are the best in the ENC then in the summer or Autumn (whenever is most convenient) of 2014 they play a 3 test tour with the ENC country hosting. This gives something for both sides to aim at as a 6N team will want to avoid this & a ENC team will crave this. If it then came to pass that the ENC team is regularly having the better of these games then yes I'd be in favor of this being a prom/Reg playoff. But as is I think any change in the immediate future would be counter productive.

 

[cyRil]

...There's another Duck?!

 

[j_remos]

There everywhere.

 

[Big Ewis]

I'm all for global expansion of rugby. I don't think any fan wouldn't like to see a situation where a WC is 20 or 24 teams where all have a shout of winning it. However development isn't something that happens overnight, granted teams will develop at different rates depending on various factors but any amendment to the 6N involving relegation is going to hamper the team that's going to 6N's B. Scotland I believe have Money trouble and 2 years outside the 6N would be a disaster. Likewise the gains Rugby has made in Italy in terms media attention, public support & financial benefit would suffer from the lack of competition. Look at italy's record over the past 12 years


Six Nations All-Time Table (2000–2012) [TABLE="class: wikitable"]
[TR]
[TH][/TH]
[TH]Pld[/TH]
[TH]W[/TH]
[TH]D[/TH]
[TH]L[/TH]
[TH]PF[/TH]
[TH]PA[/TH]
[TH]PD[/TH]
[TH]T[/TH]
[TH]Pts[/TH]
[TH]Champs[/TH]
[TH]GS[/TH]
[TH]TC[/TH]
[TH]WS[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"]

France[/TD]
[TD]65[/TD]
[TD]46[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]1725[/TD]
[TD]1133[/TD]
[TD]592[/TD]
[TD]169[/TD]
[TD]93[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]N/A[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"]

Ireland[/TD]
[TD]65[/TD]
[TD]44[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]1629[/TD]
[TD]1263[/TD]
[TD]366[/TD]
[TD]167[/TD]
[TD]89[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"]

England[/TD]
[TD]65[/TD]
[TD]43[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]21[/TD]
[TD]1829[/TD]
[TD]1014[/TD]
[TD]815[/TD]
[TD]195[/TD]
[TD]87[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"]

Wales[/TD]
[TD]65[/TD]
[TD]33[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]30[/TD]
[TD]1444[/TD]
[TD]1485[/TD]
[TD]-41[/TD]
[TD]133[/TD]
[TD]68[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"]

Scotland[/TD]
[TD]65[/TD]
[TD]16[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]47[/TD]
[TD]1038[/TD]
[TD]1627[/TD]
[TD]−589[/TD]
[TD]74[/TD]
[TD]34[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"]

Italy[/TD]
[TD]65[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]55[/TD]
[TD]960[/TD]
[TD]2103[/TD]
[TD]−1143[/TD]
[TD]77[/TD]
[TD]19[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]N/A[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


OK Scotland haven't exactly won many games in the past 12 years, but the For & against is the telling stat here, Italy have conceded an average of 32 points a game which show's their still not the finished article. Their improving as this weekends results shows but we shouldn't get carried away after one result. They need 3-4 years of consistently competing at the upper end of the 6N table to allow them to fully develop as a rugby nation before any threat to their 6N existence is acceptable.

A 7N's is a possibility but that will cause no end of problems with an already heavily congested calendar. An alternative suggestion would be that on aggregate the worst side in the 6N over 2 years has to forgo a lucrative SH tour and tour the best side from the ENC over two years. For example if Scotland are the worst side in the 6N from now until 2014 and Georgia are the best in the ENC then in the summer or Autumn (whenever is most convenient) of 2014 they play a 3 test tour with the ENC country hosting. This gives something for both sides to aim at as a 6N team will want to avoid this & a ENC team will crave this. If it then came to pass that the ENC team is regularly having the better of these games then yes I'd be in favor of this being a prom/Reg playoff. But as is I think any change in the immediate future would be counter productive.

very very interesting stats...never crossed my mind to check the 6N tournament stats alone, stats are always mixed with 5N and Home N...
It's very surprising to see England at 3rd only, I thought for sure they'd be 1st or at worst 2nd...they do have the best PD amply though...

 

[Patchey]

I think given the same opportunities that Georgia could reach Italy's level in time and quite possibly surpass it.

Don't see anything wrong with the 6 nations as it stands but I do think that those outside the tournament need something to aim for in the long term.

I think the way to grow their rugby is to get the club game working better in Georgia first, increasing their presence in the Amlin or maybe having Georgian clubs compete against Championship level clubs might be an idea?

 

[Toko_11]

There are plenty of ideas... there have been plenty of ideas in the last week, month, year, decade, generation.... but no sheet is being done so I don't post anything but game reviews anymore.. its useless

 

[norcalbuff]

IMO the goal for ENC teams should be to get a quadrennial true European Championship and focus on improving the product in the ENC, both on and off the pitch (improved standard of play, improved stadia, improved TV coverage, etc.). Promotion/relegation is unrealistic barring a legal challenge and I don't think the 6N really has any room to grow.