Relegation (or lack thereof)

[RedruthRFC]

Predictable, but crap that it's aimed at "professional rugby", but only mentions the only time it mentions The Championship when its existence has an impact on the Premiership.

Maybe it's just because this is a press release, but looking at what's here, there appear to be a lot of things that haven't been thought about. Will The Championship have relegation at the end of next season? If not, what happens to the winner of N1 if The Championship's winner isn't eligible for or doesn't want promotion? Will the Premiership run with 13 teams not 14 if this happens?

Also, from a Championship perspective, guaranteeing to maintain funding at the newly cut rate is really bad news, maybe this hints at the state of the RFU's finances.

How does the post-Brexit ability to (what was) discriminate against foreigners affect The Championship?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

League is going to be a poorer place with Ealing in it that's for sure.

Personally I don't fully understand the 15 requirement.
I prefer the over the season aspect rather than per game.

For some clubs like to give young emerging English academy prospects older players to support them
Example at Tigers
Kelly @ 12 and having Moroni or Scott outside him.
or
Steward @15 and having Murimurivalu and Nadolo around him.
Or JVP @ 9 and having the likes of a back row of Van Staden, Wiese and Liebenberg supplying him faster ball.

That's 3 players who are young, English and very highly rated youngsters but also 6 foreign players around them giving them experience.
England just doesn't have the numbers to do IMO every week at 14 clubs without lowering the league quality.

I also don't think the current system has been hindering the English talent coming up anyway.

 

[BPM]

I tend to agree. The Premiership has mostly benefited from having good quality imports raising the general standard of play.

I'd also seriously question whether there are 210 genuinely top level English players available every week.

 

[Reiser99]

Agreed as well about the 15 rule. Seems like a solution to something that isn't a problem.

Also interestingly this could lead to ring fencing indirectly as they say that promotion is subject to meeting minimum required standards. However, those standards are also going to be revised and I can only see them being revised up, making it harder for championship clubs to meet them. Therefore they could well be making promotion almost impossible for championship clubs and ring fence that way.

 

[Geordie]

But if 15 of your 23 is EQ, you still have 8 potential foreigners to have in the squad...

I dont see an issue.

 

[RedruthRFC]

League is going to be a poorer place with Ealing in it that's for sure.

On what basis?

 

[RedruthRFC]

I tend to agree. The Premiership has mostly benefited from having good quality imports raising the general standard of play.

I'd also seriously question whether there are 210 genuinely top level English players available every week.

You don't need English players, you need EQPs. What does the average run at at the moment?

Why do you need all 210 players to be top quality anyway? Surely the idea is that more game time will be given to academy players.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

On what basis?

Another ground that will Barley fill 1000 seats.
Zero foundation, Zero actual grassroots most of it's academy are from other academies or from other countries.

Don't get me wrong I understand that it isn't RFU funded academy but to have to actively advertise it's academy system in SA news sites etc despite being in London is just plain embarrassing

But if 15 of your 23 is EQ, you still have 8 potential foreigners to have in the squad...

I don't see an issue.

It makes building a squad a lot more tedious.
Say you have your starting team on paper, 15 EQP.
let's say 5 of those players have a good year and get called up to England, what do you do then, at least with the current set up you can try and budget a replacement from it and generally foreign players have on the whole been better value for money for said clubs as cover. What about injuries?

My question is what is wrong with the current system how is it failing currently?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Incentives for EQP does seem better than a steadfast "You MUST have X amount"

For all the talk of levelling the playing field between the haves and have nots that'll screw promoted sides from the Championship
Sides putting out England internationals vs Trev who's a plumber by day and semi-pro by night
At least being able to fill out the numbers with imports gives them a fighting chance

There would need to be serious investment in the lower level academies for it to be properly viable

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Incentives for EQP does seem better than a steadfast "You MUST have X amount"

For all the talk of levelling the playing field between the haves and have nots that'll screw promoted sides from the Championship
Sides putting out England internationals vs Trev who's a plumber by day and semi-pro by night
At least being able to fill out the numbers with imports gives them a fighting chance

There would need to be serious investment in the lower level academies for it to be properly viable

and then if Trev is actually decent he will prob have a welsh or scottish granny and get capped and thus be useless to them

 

[RedruthRFC]

Another ground that will Barley fill 1000 seats.
Zero foundation, Zero actual grassroots most of it's academy are from other academies or from other countries.

Don't get me wrong I understand that it isn't RFU funded academy but to have to actively advertise it's academy system in SA news sites etc despite being in London is just plain embarrassing

Fair enough, I have no idea what sections of the club other than the first team and academy get up to. It seems easy enough for teams based on London to put out three or four sides every week and to have hundreds of kids on site every Sunday morning, so if they're not managing this, their grassroots credentials are pretty shaky.

Can't argue about the attendance. It's not that long ago that there were quite a few well supported sides in The Championship that would have had a legitimate chance of growing Premiership sized crowds shortly after promotion, but I'm not aware of any that could make that claim now. The Chairmen would do well to take a look at where things have gone wrong, but there is a mindset of playing the victim, so rather than introspection, no doubt the decline would be blamed on the evil PRL cartel and the RFU (who apparently owe them a living).

 

[BPM]

You don't need English players, you need EQPs. What does the average run at at the moment?

Why do you need all 210 players to be top quality anyway? Surely the idea is that more game time will be given to academy players.

OK. Perhaps I expressed that poorly.

My point was intended to be that quality overseas players improve those around them - and as Akker van Tigs said, it's the academy players that generally benefit the most.

What we want to limit is the average non EQP pro who doesn't offer much to English rugby. So to use an example from Quins - if it's a choice between Santiago Garcia Botta (who is stealing a living IMO) or an EQP Championship level loosehead, I'd take the latter any day of the week.

On the other hand, I'm not totally convinced that there are enough academy products who are genuinely going to make it at the level needed to really benefit England. I'm concerned we'll end up with more Championship level players in the top league which benefits no-one because the good players aren't challenged as much.

 

[odw26]

I'm actually very much pro-ring fencing the Premiership because I feel as though there is a real black hole financially in rugby and do not see it as being self-sustaining at the moment. I do not see the long-term benefits of a club like Ealing over-stretching themselves to try and reach the top level. As soon as their financial backing goes, I struggle to see Ealing surviving and fear they'll become another London Welsh. Yes, Exeter have done it, but the south-west is a hotbed for rugby union, whereas London is already congested, even more so with London Irish moving back. I would love to see Doncaster earn the 14th Premiership spot and try and grow rugby union around there as I feel as though they have a much better chance of external growth than Ealing do. At the very least, I would be in favour of bottom in Premiership vs top in Championship having a play off for promotion rather than it being automatic.

 

[RedruthRFC]

My point was intended to be that quality overseas players improve those around them - and as Akker van Tigs said, it's the academy players that generally benefit the most.

I get that, but why should the change stop that from happening? If you say that each side has 2 match day squad's worth of players (a bit OTT for most admittedly), all of whom receive equal game time, that leaves 16 spots for non-EQPs to bring their quality and expertise - plenty of room.

To answer my own question and demonstrate its salience, I checked the PRL website. Currently 70% of match day squads are EQPs, meaning that the average match day squad contains 16.1 EQPs at the moment. Teams will have to be a bit more cute now that the target needs to be hit every match, not on average over the season, but it's not a major constraint and I still don't see the need for wailing and gnashing of teeth about how it will affect squad compositions.

What we want to limit is the average non EQP pro who doesn't offer much to English rugby. So to use an example from Quins - if it's a choice between Santiago Garcia Botta (who is stealing a living IMO) or an EQP Championship level loosehead, I'd take the latter any day of the week.

The is a good example of the good that could come of this. Where are Wales going to get their props from (Francis, John) if overseas players are taking spots that could be occupied by WQPs!?! The only reason I can see for the scenario that you describe is that Garcia Botta is willing to work for less than his English counterpart, otherwise, why wouldn't you go with the EQP already? It doesn't seem that likely though, it's not like Championship clubs are rolling in money to compete with Premiership squad player money.

On the other hand, I'm not totally convinced that there are enough academy products who are genuinely going to make it at the level needed to really benefit England. I'm concerned we'll end up with more Championship level players in the top league which benefits no-one because the good players aren't challenged as much.

Time will tell. In the tight five especially, you might well be right, but if that's the case, it just means that Championship players get promoted to the Premiership, leaving more game time for the academy lads in The Championship.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

So the answer is to drain the already limited resources of the championship? so that they can play a couple of games a season potentially instead of a whole season for the championship team.

 

[BPM]

Sticking with the Garcia Botta example, I can only assume we thought a 32 cap tier 1 international from a side historically renowned for the scrummaging prowess would be better than what we actually got …

On paper, that kind of player should be considerably better than an EQP we probably haven't heard of from the Championship, but as we all know, Rugby isn't played on paper.

Different side of the scrum, but Christian Judge is a good example of player that has come from the Championship and has done a perfectly decent (but not in any way outstanding) job for Saracens and Bath. I'd take someone like that over a Garcia Botta any time. However, if that's the standard we're going to be looking at for a decent proportion of players in the league, I'm not sure that improves the prospects for aspiring England players.

I get what these changes are trying to achieve, I just can't help but feel like the intentions aren't in line with the reality of what is available.

 

[RedruthRFC]

So the answer is to drain the already limited resources of the championship? so that they can play a couple of games a season potentially instead of a whole season for the championship team.

Championship players are freedmen, contracted to the clubs in the same way that Premiership players are, they aren't a resource owned by The Championship. As such, they would do what they think is best for their career just like they do at the moment and if they leave, they would be replaced, just as they are at the moment. In practice, most (not all) jump at the chance at the big time and opportunity to enjoy better coaching, playing with better players (think of all that sweet overseas knowledge) and better facilities. Some make it, others don't. There are plenty of examples of both.

 

[Geordie]

Another ground that will Barley fill 1000 seats.
Zero foundation, Zero actual grassroots most of it's academy are from other academies or from other countries.

Don't get me wrong I understand that it isn't RFU funded academy but to have to actively advertise it's academy system in SA news sites etc despite being in London is just plain embarrassing



It makes building a squad a lot more tedious.
Say you have your starting team on paper, 15 EQP.
let's say 5 of those players have a good year and get called up to England, what do you do then, at least with the current set up you can try and budget a replacement from it and generally foreign players have on the whole been better value for money for said clubs as cover. What about injuries?

My question is what is wrong with the current system how is it failing currently?

Its in relation to the Kolpack agreement, and now that we're out of the EU we cant follow it...unless the government continue to follow it...which i assuming they arent,.

Yes i can see your arguement. But im not sure you will have 15 starting EQ players, with injuries, rotation etc etc. 8 "foreginers" per match day squad still gives you a lot of flexibility.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

What the EU was saying we had to have a average of 14 eqp over the season to get extra RFU funding?

 

[higgik]

Just read that Super League is in real financial trouble, and maybe loses of some teams. Maybe some talent there might want to jump ship and get a bigger pay packet.