Relegation: Good or Bad?

[Teh Mite]

Therein lay the problem, too many "fans" of the sport believe the national side (they whom represent the sponsors, err, i imean, all of us...) is absoloute paramount and the clubs should play 2nd fiddle. completely ignoring that clubs develop and nurture the players.

A successful national side needs to be developed from strong foundations at club level. Giving them an unhindered achievable goal, enabling them to develop the players and work their way up through the ranks /leagues is the way forward. This is why promotion is good.


Relegation stops teams from resting on their laurels. Edinburgh may have reached the HEC semi this year, but they did so at the expense of the purgatory league. They simply did not bother with their league system knowing ful well there are no concequenses by finishing bottom... They're still in the competition next year and HEC qualification is not even at risk. Thus it was farcical for the majority of the season for the fans. If they risked their league status routinely (and for that matter, hec qualification), their apathetic attitude to the rabbo wouldn't have been so obvious. Furthermore, non-Celtic fans attitude to the league wouldn't be apathetic either. In a ring fenced league, Wasps v Newcastle would have been the utimate example of dead rubber, however as Newcastle had an outside chance of survival it became an intriguing fixture.

That is why relegation is interesting.

 

[welshglory]

Yea but relegation is a bit pointless in the English system in particular because the Championship clubs have such crap facilities and infrastructures. For the promotion and relegation to have any legitimacy the championship sides need to become stronger on the field and off of it. The problem is i don't think keeping the current system is going to help this. That's why i would scrap relegation/promotion for a few years, then bring it back when everyone has their house in order.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Yup, Championship sides are all terrible.
I mean Exeter Chiefs, gah, such an awful side.
Didn't just qualify (on merit, unlike most Pro12 sides) for the Heineken Cup off of the back of a 2nd successful season in the Aviva or anything...oh wait!

 

[Peat]

Yup, Championship sides are all terrible.
I mean Exeter Chiefs, gah, such an awful side.
Didn't just qualify (on merit, unlike most Pro12 sides) for the Heineken Cup off of the back of a 2nd successful season in the Aviva or anything...oh wait!

While you're right to point out the obvious flaw in the unilateralism of his statement, I don't think he's at all wrong that the Championship needs to be a lot stronger - at the moment a lot, arguably too many, clubs return very quickly. That's not a good sign of the standard in between imo.

Mindyou, a lot of this is the RFU's fault, who welched on a lot of promises to the Championship.

It will be very interesting to see what happens to London Welsh who are/were imo poster children for the 'crap' section of the Championship - poor crowds, an inadequate stadium that has forced the need for a hasty move to a rented stadium and more than a few dual-registered/loan players that they're unlikely to see again. If they thrive, then the Championship is clearly very strong indeed. If they don't, then you've got to ask how good are the second tier teams really - not just the few with Premiership standard facilities and crowds, usually with a clear history of Premiership rugby, but the whole. Exeter were Premiership standard in a great many ways before they went up, which is not representative of the whole imo.

 

[Teh Mite]

The facilities at Leeds, Bristol and Newcastle are bloody awful... *cough*

 

[Rinzler]

I agree that clubs should have a solid foundation in which to go up, but the clubs who finish top generally have that anyway. It only though the silly play-offs that an element of luck is introduced, and a team that may not be ready to go up, can. This is why I'm a bit concerned that London Welsh maybe forced to live beyond their means in the premiership, but this should not mean teams like Bristol or Leeds shouldn't go up when they earn the right.

 

[welshglory]

The facilities at Leeds, Bristol and Newcastle are bloody awful... *cough*

Yea well done 3 sides out of 12...

Yup, Championship sides are all terrible.
I mean Exeter Chiefs, gah, such an awful side.
Didn't just qualify (on merit, unlike most Pro12 sides) for the Heineken Cup off of the back of a 2nd successful season in the Aviva or anything...oh wait!

Exeter are a great example for the other clubs to follow.
They spent 4 years or so building up the club from the bottom. Investing in stadia, facilities and a professional infrastructure. Give me an example of another club like that in the Championship... that's right there isn't one. If you want more clubs like Exeter, i think a relegation freeze for a few years will allow the championship sides to build up their clubs, isn't that a good thing?

And did i ever say that Exeter have a bad side? No i said that most of the clubs in the championship have crap facilities and pro infrastructure. A lot of them are good sides and would give most premiership sides and Pro 12 sides a run for their money.

I'm just comparing the championship to the French D2, and quite frankly the championship sides are miles behind in terms of development.

 

[welshglory]

This isn't a blast at the English rugby system, in fact i'm a big fan.

Just looking at things from a neutrals perspective.

 

[Teh Mite]

Binning promotion to "encourage" development offers equal logic to lowering speed limits reduce journey times

Without something to aspire towards, they'll just tread water.

 

[welshglory]

I strongly disagree. Most clubs aren't developing now because they don't want to take the financial risk

 

[j'nuh]

Binning promotion to "encourage" development offers equal logic to lowering speed limits reduce journey times

Without something to aspire towards, they'll just tread water.

Well, binning promotion goes hand-in-hand with offering franchises. Then there would be an option to offer franchises to teams which have a large potential to develop, and it gives us a chance to give teams which aren't in the heartlands of union a chance to have an extended run in the top league.

I think the problem I have with this argument is that a club joining the Premiership will begin to have much larger overheads, mainly from additional squad and coach wages spent to avoid humiliation. Without a fan base already in place to support this, they'll quickly run into financial problems. Relegation allows teams like this to fail on the pitch, drop down, and try again. Artificially keeping them in the top league means they'll either take hammerings and supporters become apathetic, or they spend beyond their means and fail financially. Either way, development of any aspect will be short-lived. Also, with all these overheads, what money does the club have left to put in academy and local development? Better for Championship teams to put the facilities in place for continued success, than spending everything they get on wages of players they cannot afford.

Franchising makes more sense for countries which aren't as populated as England and France though. (Perhaps Italy with time.)

I strongly disagree. Most clubs aren't developing now because they don't want to take the financial risk

Much prefer teams being safe and financially sound. One Exeter Chiefs offer more for development than 10 Celtic Crusaders.

 

[Feicarsinn]

I strongly disagree. Most clubs aren't developing now because they don't want to take the financial risk

But that argument doesn't match up with what you're proposing to fix the problem. What you're saying is that relegation/promotion should be put on hiatus for a few years so as to allow teams to concentrate on improving their infrastructure and how they run themselves. Well there's no reason the likes of Rotherham or Nottingham, who are both relatively secure in terms of staying in the league, can't do that now. All that scrapping promotion will do is mean that all of the best players in the championship will either be off to France, lower premiership sides or Rabo sides, which would obviously weaken the league. There's a strong possibility in that case that it would never recover and all the good work that's ben done over the past 5 years would be wasted.

I reckon that Premier Rugby (or whoever) are quite right in having some sort of minimum standards that must be met if a team wants to go up. It makes sense, strengthening both leagues as both the teams going up and down will have very good facilities and should they get relegated, they'll be in a position in the future to get back into the Premiership. The problem is the hypocrisy of the current set up. You can't say to new teams coming that they must abide by a set of rules that established teams do not have to follow. In my mind, if the people running the English game really want to strengthen the top two tiers they've got to say to all the clubs "Listen, these are the standards we expect from Premiership clubs. If you don't meet them, you can't be promoted. If you're in the league and you are still failing to meet them in three seasons, shove off."

 

[j_remos]

In my mind, if the people running the English game really want to strengthen the top two tiers they've got to say to all the clubs "Listen, these are the standards we expect from Premiership clubs. If you don't meet them, you can't be promoted. If you're in the league and you are still failing to meet them in three seasons, shove off."

Completely agree... (and with your other points).

The main issue for years (before the silly playoff system) was that the team that went down had such an advantage (facilities/fanbase/parachute payment) that noone else had much chance of promotion. We effectively had a 13 team prem with teams taking turns to have a rest n D1.
Although i think the playoffs are unfair it has given more teams a chance to get promoted.

I have allways said that what the championship needs is more interaction with the prem. Wether its achieved by more promotion/relegation or a national cup. Or even a slightly better version of the british/irish cup thing.. Especially when the RFU are cutting back on the A-league why cant we have a structure than allows English development sides more game time too.