RaboDirect Pro12: Round 11/12

[Peat]

Question about the Munster v Ulster match.

At about 4:40 into the game a penalty was called (I think). I couldn't quite here what the referee said about someone doing something 'on purpose', and the announcer said it "was a great call...it's creeping into the game of rugby and rugby does not need it." I just didn't catch what 'it' was.


das

Struggling to find what you're talking about - I think however you might mean Paul Marshall deliberately passing it at a lazy runner at 4:20, which Rolland didn't give a penalty for. Which tv provider were you watching on?

 

[dasNdanger]

Struggling to find what you're talking about - I think however you might mean Paul Marshall deliberately passing it at a lazy runner at 4:20, which Rolland didn't give a penalty for. Which tv provider were you watching on?

Thankies! That sounds like it. (Watching on Fox Soccer Plus - not sure what feed they use - the announcer has a distinctive accent. )

They didn't replay what happened or explain what happened, and I just couldn't make out what the problem was, and I was confused by the whole penalty/or not thing. But that's it. So - what's the point to passing it at a lazy runner?


das

 

[TRF_Olyy]

It gets then a penalty for offside, despite the offending player trying to get onside - the passer could easily pass elsewhere but chooses to go at the player to win the penalty.
There's nothing really wrong with it but I suppose its poor sportsmanship.

Sent from my HTC Incredible S using Tapatalk 2

 

[Peat]

What Olyy said, basically it's a deliberate attempt to gain a penalty.

It gets then a penalty for offside, despite the offending player trying to get onside - the passer could easily pass elsewhere but chooses to go at the player to win the penalty.
There's nothing really wrong with it but I suppose its poor sportsmanship.

Sent from my HTC Incredible S using Tapatalk 2

I think it's also poor sportsmanship to slowly jog past the scrum-half and restrict his options. Also, more than poor sportsmanship, its against the rules of the game. You are interfering with play while offside. If you can't get back onside without impeding the scrum-half, wait for play to pass.

I've rewatched it a couple of times now - when Paul Marshall has picked up the ball and is looking to shift it, BJ Botha is passing directly in front of him (Marshall's fairly side on) about a yard away. There is no way that's not interference. And that's a penalty - the fact that Marshall has deliberately called attention to it rather than making the most of things without doing so is completely immaterial. Actually, not sure why I'm having a go at you here. Just het up, which is absurd when the game is over, it wouldn't have made a difference, and Niall O'Connor would have probably missed the kick anyway.

Have seen refs give those though. And this really shouldn't be a matter for individual interpretation. But there we go.

 

[Teh Mite]

If a fat prop doesn't retreat and interferes with play, he deserves the ball to be thrown at him and conceed the penalty. Its a professional fowl to intentionally slow the game down.

 

[psychic duck]

Despite winning the league 4 times and having been consistently the better side than the Dragons, the Ospreys have always struggled away at Rodney Parade. They have won just one match in Newport against the Dragons in 10 attempts. With the Dragons fans always seemingly to take particular joy in beating the Ospreys there. Similarly though, the Dragons have an equally poor record away to the Ospreys winning just once in the 2010/11 season when a very young Faletau memorably outpaced Gareth Owen taking him on the outside and scoring (first try on the video below).

<iframe width="500" height="281" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/KdeD-LLePOE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>

Notably Aled Brew has always enjoyed playing his former side the Ospreys, he scored 4 tries in 4 matches for the Dragons against them at Rodney Parade, and also scored in his only match for the Cardiff Blues against them. Toby Faletau has been man of the match for the Dragons past two victories over the Ospreys at Rodney Parade, and was also man of the match in the Dragons only win away to the Ospreys in 2010.

Ospreys results at Rodney Parade
2011/12 - Dragons 21-20 Ospreys (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/16398727)
2010/11 - Dragons 32-28 Ospreys (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/13054125)
2009/10 - Dragons 28-20 Ospreys (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/8582578.stm)
2009/10 - Dragons 40-19 Ospreys (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/8480398.stm)
2008/09 - Dragons 30-24 Ospreys (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/7782712.stm)
2007/08 - Dragons 18-10 Ospreys (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/my_club/ng_dragons/7383987.stm)
2006/07 - Dragons 13-27 Ospreys (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/my_club/ng_dragons/6628371.stm)
2005/06 - Dragons 24-14 Ospreys (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/4564914.stm)
2004/05 - Dragons 33-29 Ospreys (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/3987385.stm)
2003/04 - Dragons 29-19 Ospreys (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/3104978.stm)

 

[dasNdanger]

It gets then a penalty for offside, despite the offending player trying to get onside - the passer could easily pass elsewhere but chooses to go at the player to win the penalty.
There's nothing really wrong with it but I suppose its poor sportsmanship.

Sent from my HTC Incredible S using Tapatalk 2

What Olyy said, basically it's a deliberate attempt to gain a penalty.



I think it's also poor sportsmanship to slowly jog past the scrum-half and restrict his options. Also, more than poor sportsmanship, its against the rules of the game. You are interfering with play while offside. If you can't get back onside without impeding the scrum-half, wait for play to pass.

I've rewatched it a couple of times now - when Paul Marshall has picked up the ball and is looking to shift it, BJ Botha is passing directly in front of him (Marshall's fairly side on) about a yard away. There is no way that's not interference. And that's a penalty - the fact that Marshall has deliberately called attention to it rather than making the most of things without doing so is completely immaterial. Actually, not sure why I'm having a go at you here. Just het up, which is absurd when the game is over, it wouldn't have made a difference, and Niall O'Connor would have probably missed the kick anyway.

Have seen refs give those though. And this really shouldn't be a matter for individual interpretation. But there we go.

If a fat prop doesn't retreat and interferes with play, he deserves the ball to be thrown at him and conceed the penalty. Its a professional fowl to intentionally slow the game down.

Thanks, guys! It helps me to understand the game a bit better. Upon rewatching the moment and now looking for this, I see that the 'fat prop' moseys along in front of Marshall as Marshall attempts to pass the ball. I can't say that either are at fault because it all happens rather quickly without one seemingly to notice what the other is doing. Marshall, imho, clearly does not see the 'fat prop' jogging up from behind, and whether or not Botha realizes Marshall is about to toss the ball could be debated. Basically it appears that Marshall turns to pass just as Botha comes up on him - it all happens rather quickly (and probably why I missed it and didn't understand the significance) - not sure either player had any options in this regard. From what I see, Marshall is clearly not at fault, but I suppose it could be debated whether or not Botha deliberately interfered with the pass.

Thanks again, guys!


das

 

[psychic duck]

That was a poor match at Rodney Parade.

Apart from the first 3 minutes, the Ospreys again played awfully like they always do in Newport. Luckily for them the Dragons weren't good enough to capitalise and were woefully uninventive in attack, however I reckon that some of the better Dragons sides over the past 5 years would have won that match to be honest when they had the likes of Brew, Tovey etc in the backline.

The Dragons need to stop playing Robling at 10. He has at least one or two major gaffes per match it seems, this time he was charged down like 3 times during the match, nearly conceding a try on one occasion, and then his luck running out and conceding one to Beck.

Also the Dragons need to sort out Tuilagi's non passing issues. For the whole match the ball never got past him as he simply never passed, it seemed that he was the only member of the Dragons backline who actually ran at the Ospreys defence, as the others didn't get a chance from his non passing.

Where has Ashley Smith dissappeared to these days? He was Dragons vice-captain aged about 22, but now has vanished. He wasn't ever the most talked about player, but at least when he played the likes of Brew, Fussell and Harries all always used to get the ball plenty and flourish with the Dragons. Today Prydie and Harries barely got any ball spread out to them.

 

[Draggs]

Tovey really only had patches of good form. Steff seems to have fallen out of favour. His defence was quite poor, but we need a standoff that can kick. Maybe we should look abroad? That little Namibian standoff Kotze impressed me last year. Bet we could sign him for nothing (short term). If we want to go obscure, Hansie Graaff is attracting Treu's attention, big strong outside half.

No clue about Ashley Smith, he was always pretty decent (remember the glory days of him an Gomer-Davies?). He drifts in and out of the 23.

Prydie needs to be involved more. I'd rather see him at fullback, but Amos is doing decently. Amos makes errors, but he doesn't lack guts, fair dos.

 

[psychic duck]

Tovey really only had patches of good form. Steff seems to have fallen out of favour. His defence was quite poor, but we need a standoff that can kick. Maybe we should look abroad? That little Namibian standoff Kotze impressed me last year. Bet we could sign him for nothing (short term). If we want to go obscure, Hansie Graaff is attracting Treu's attention, big strong outside half.

I always thought Tovey was quite good, he worked his way up to the Wales extended World Cup squad at one point and was playing well although goal kicking was always an issue, but just his last 6 months or so at the Dragons were very poor, and to be honest unless he can somehow revive his now stagnating career at the Blues, I'm not sure whether he will reach his full potential he showed for a while at the Dragons.

With Patchell now ahead of Tovey at the Blues, it would seem more likely that he would be a regional standard player rather than ever an international now, in hindsight he should have stayed at the Dragons now, as the Blues are a mess and Patchell has emerged and he hasn't arrived to play fly half like he would have anticipated now. But then he wasn't to know that the Blues would be equally as bad as the Dragons and Patchell would emerge when he signed for them though I guess.

I agree on your assessment of the Dragons fly halves, somebody say like Ben Botica (who wouldn't have been that expensive for Harlequins when signed from Périgueux) would have been a good solid signing, but unfortunately the Dragons haven't seem to have scouted hard enough to find a replacement for Tovey and have been left with the error prone Robling. However at least the Dragons didn't sign Piers Francis of Edinburgh though, he's awful and threw two intercept passes against Glasgow on Saturday one of which Ruaridh Jackson scored from.

No clue about Ashley Smith, he was always pretty decent (remember the glory days of him an Gomer-Davies?). He drifts in and out of the 23.

With that centre combination, the Dragons back three actually got far more chances and attacking opportunities actually to be fair than they do now. Ashley Smith was underrated in my opinion, perhaps Edwards simply doesn't rate/like him for whatever reason though since it seems to be since he took charge that he has disappeared. He's surely better than Leach?

 

[psychic duck]

After his try against Glasgow last weekend, Tim Visser has now equalled the league record of Tommy Bowe for most tries. Visser has scored 48 tries in 66 matches, Bowe's 48 tries has taken 120 matches.

Visser also has scored 11 tries in 9 matches this season, and looks on course to be the league's leading try scorer for a fourth consecutive season. Which is an incredible achievement considering that he has played for a struggling side that his finished 6th, 8th, 11th in the league whilst he has been at Edinburgh and are currently 9th in league.

 

[Conal]

After his try against Glasgow last weekend, Tim Visser has now equalled the league record of Tommy Bowe for most tries. Visser has scored 48 tries in 66 matches, Bowe's 48 tries has taken 120 matches.

Visser also has scored 11 tries in 9 matches this season, and looks on course to be the league's leading try scorer for a fourth consecutive season. Which is an incredible achievement considering that he has played for a struggling side that his finished 6th, 8th, 11th in the league whilst he has been at Edinburgh and are currently 9th in league.

hows visser defense? i have always thought he was a tad fragile in it

but his attack is phenomenal but i do wonder what % of edinburghs tries he scores

 

[Draggs]

You know what really ****** me off?
Robling complaining to Evans after he (Robling) couldn't catch one. The pass was right into Lewis' torso but he didn't bother to catch it, it seemed.
If your scrumhalf gets the ******* there, you better damn well catch it, or it's your own fault.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Leinster back to something approaching full strength at last. Kearney, Fitzgerald and O'Driscoll start. Nacewa and Strauss may be back next week.

http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/matchcentre/10816.php

EDINBURGH:
15: Greig Tonks
14: Dougie Fife
13: Matt Scott
12: Ben Atiga
11: Tim Visser
10: Piers Francis
9: Greig Laidlaw CAPTAIN
1: Allan Jacobsen
2: Andy ***terrell
3: Willem Nel
4: Grant Gilchrist
5: Sean Cox
6: Stuart McInally
7: Dimitri Basilaia
8: David Denton

REPLACEMENTS:
16: Steven Lawrie
17: Robin Hislop
18: Geoff Cross
19: Perry Parker
20: Netani Talei
21: Richie Rees
22: James King
23: Sep Visser



LEINSTER:
15: Rob Kearney
14: Fionn Carr
13: Brian O'Driscoll
12: Gordon D'Arcy
11: Luke Fitzgerald
10: Jonathan Sexton
9: Eoin Reddan
1: Cian Healy
2: Sean Cronin
3: Mike Ross
4: Leo Cullen CAPTAIN
5: Devin Toner
6: Kevin McLaughlin
7: Sean O'Brien
8: Jamie Heaslip

REPLACEMENTS:
16: Aaron Dundon
17: Heinke van der Merwe
18: Michael Bent
19: Tom Denton
20: Shane Jennings
21: Isaac Boss
22: Ian Madigan
23: Andrew Conway

 

[lucky number 7]

That's a damn good side snoop....Things appear to be looking up

 

[psychic duck]

Leinster if they perform well should be able to tonk that off form Edinburgh side. Only Visser of Edinburgh would get into the Leinster team, perhaps Denton but not on his current form. It's amusing that Edinburgh continue to select Piers Francis despite throwing two intercept passes last week and having one of the most shocking performances I have ever by a 10 against Racing.

 

[UlsterRugby2012]

You can argue if you want for who is the better international 8, or for the Lions, between Heaslip or Denton, but the way Heaslip plays for Leinster I don't think there would be any chance of Denton overtaking him.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

I don't expect a vintage Leinster backline performance this week since the returning trio will be very rusty. Next weekend against the Scarlets could be a different story.

 

[psychic duck]

You can argue if you want for who is the better international 8, or for the Lions, between Heaslip or Denton, but the way Heaslip plays for Leinster I don't think there would be any chance of Denton overtaking him.

I meant in the Leinster team as in anywhere in the XV, not as number 8.

Heaslip is clearly ahead of Denton for the time being, Denton might be able to make the Leinster team at 6 but his form this season has been very poor compared to his form in 2011 and 2012. Visser would make the Leinster XV ahead of Carr.

Other than that, none of the Edinburgh XV would have much chance of getting into the Leinster XV.

By the way, what has happened to Chunk Jacobsen? He did a good job for Scotland at the World Cup, and did well for Edinburgh in their Heineken Cup run having combating the Toulouse scrum well but this season for whatever reason he has declined enormously and is struggling at the scrums.

He has declined from decent to awful within the space of 6 or 8 months. John Yapp has actually been better than him this season for Edinburgh.

Good to see BOD back, he was immense against the Cardiff Blues before he went off injured and it was a joy to see a great player at his best. I wonder how many more times we will see him on fire like that again? I really hope he makes the Lions tour in June.

 

[coonor]

I don't expect a vintage Leinster backline performance this week since the returning trio will be very rusty. Next weekend against the Scarlets could be a different story.

I agree, It wouldn't surprise me if BOD had a good game but that's just the nature of him as a great player. Fitz and Kearney are welcome additions but I expect and accept mistakes from them.

None the less, a good team and plenty enough to put away this Edinburgh side. I expect a big performance from Healy, he was poor against Ulster and will want to rectify this. The same can be said for Ross who is likely to have memories of his game against Clermont still in his mind. I think Reddan is in need of a big game, he's been poor this season in my opinion and Boss appears to be playing better rugby at the moment.