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PRL & FNR: "Bugger off celts"

So what has happened? How has this "competitive nature" suddenly become a disadvantage?

Well its not all that hard to understand why. Premiership teams flog their players mercilessly... they are sacrificed on the altar of the almighty Euro! Too little rest, too many hard matches. If they keep staying that course, they must eventually break their players.

Keep playing them while they are injured, they play below par.

Rest them only when they are injured instead of before, they are out of the game longer because they not only have to recover from the injury itself, they have to rebuild muscle tone after the lengthy break.

The players are rugby's greatest asset. Why does the Premiership continue to abuse them week after week, month after month, season after season?

Well of course I agree with that. But as Chris mentioned, the salary cap does put English clubs at a bit of a disadvantage with regards depth. On the flip side of that of course is the fact that should you scrap the salary cap, the gap between rich and poor would increase tenfold and it'd be likely that we'd never see teams like London Welsh and Exeter come up again.

It's hard to see a solution that can balance both sides of the argument with regard the cap. Simply put, as long as it is in place in England and not in every other league then English teams will be disadvantaged on a European level and player welfare will suffer as a result. Perhaps an idea is to scrap the cap, but introduce a scheme in which players can only play a certain number of games a season. While this will still disadvantage the smaller clubs, it'll mean the likes of Saracens and Leicester can't simply buy 15 top class players and flog them to death. But there are still massive holes in it.
 
With that Blues squad, gotta remember that the WRU has told the regions that internationals are to given at least a couple of games off at before the start of the Heineken due the last season being pretty damn gruelling for them. Understandable that the Blues chose this one to rest a few of them since it's away to one of the weaker teams in the league (always a tough ask to win up there though). Doesn't mean that they'll play a team like that throughout the season like people seem to think all the teams in the Pro12 do.
Plus god knows what the Blues' strongest XV is atm, a lot of untested players in that squad who'll probably be trying to have their breakthrough season.
 
So what has happened? How has this "competitive nature" suddenly become a disadvantage?

Well its not all that hard to understand why. Premiership teams flog their players mercilessly... they are sacrificed on the altar of the almighty Euro! Too little rest, too many hard matches. If they keep staying that course, they must eventually break their players.

Keep playing them while they are injured, they play below par.

Rest them only when they are injured instead of before, they are out of the game longer because they not only have to recover from the injury itself, they have to rebuild muscle tone after the lengthy break.

The players are rugby's greatest asset. Why does the Premiership continue to abuse them week after week, month after month, season after season?

Is that really true though?

I think the Pro 12 rests players too much. That's why a lot of people don't give a damn about it.
 
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.................. three games in eight days. I can't see any Rugby Players Association agreeing to this for Rugby

The Top 14 have done that for the last few seasons occasionally.................................or near enough to make no difference!
 
First and foremost, I hope the Pro12, Prem, and Top14 can reconcile their differences and find some way to keep the Heineken Cup.
Secondly, we need to take a look at fixing some aspect of regional rugby. Take the LV= Cup, for example. It is good to see younger players given a shot, but there is no value in the LV=Cup for Welsh sides (no HCup spot). Hence, we put out the nippers and Prem sides put out strong 23's. I'd rather see a variation of a Pro12 'A' League.
 
Think most people agree that Pro 12 teams need to be put into the HEC based on merit and places awarded for so many positions in the league. The truth really is that the authorities at the top representing don't want a change.
 
First and foremost, I hope the Pro12, Prem, and Top14 can reconcile their differences and find some way to keep the Heineken Cup.
Secondly, we need to take a look at fixing some aspect of regional rugby. Take the LV= Cup, for example. It is good to see younger players given a shot, but there is no value in the LV=Cup for Welsh sides (no HCup spot). Hence, we put out the nippers and Prem sides put out strong 23's. I'd rather see a variation of a Pro12 'A' League.

******** do they.
 
The idea of a Pro 12 'A' instead of the LV is a good idea tbh but then again isnt that what they want the Prem to be? (for the Welsh players anyway)
 
An Exception is not a rule.

Certainly. I don't watch enough Prem to know first teams, but when I see the Welsh teams play in the LV= Cup it does seem as if the Prem sides put in a few more internationals.
I suppose my issue with the LV= Cup is it's lack of purpose for Welsh teams. A Prem side wins it and they are in the HCup; Welsh side, no.

What I am referring to, TS, is a side below the Welsh clubs (with certain restrictions, such as player promotion/relegation). This might not be needed if the WRU persists with the strengthening of the Principality Premiership.
 
How would the top teams in each competition be fair? Let's say the top 5 in each comp, that means 5 French teams, 5 English teams, probably 2 Irish, 2 welsh and 1 Scottish from the pro12.
So that's like saying lets give the English and French a bigger chance of winning? Don't think so. There should be the same amount of teams from each country to give an equal chance.
 
Its a club competition, not a nations cup.

You'd support Munster after Ulster get dumped out, eh?


*smacks head in desk*
 
So that's like saying lets give the English and French a bigger chance of winning? Don't think so. There should be the same amount of teams from each country to give an equal chance.
All that merit-based qualification would change is that it would stop the worst teams of the Pro12 like Connacht and Zebre from entering the tournament. It isn't proposed that more English and French teams would take their place. Teams which aren't good enough to finish in the top half of the Pro12 probably aren't good enough to win the Heineken cup, so I don't see it changing the chances of a Pro12 team winning the thing. What it does stop is there being groups with clubs in it which are so understrength compared to the others that the other teams view coming away from games with them without a bonus victory to be a "loss". For example, Pool 3 of the current Heineken Cup has Zebre, Connacht, Harlequins and Biarritz and is a joke of a group. Harlequins will be gutted to have any less than 5-pointers against Zebre and anything less than convincing wins against Connacht. Biarritz will be their only challenge, and the team in that clash which doesn't go through in first place will probably go through as a runner-up. If the group had the likes of Bath and Stade Francais instead of Zebre and Connacht, the group would probably be more competitive and would probably make for better watching.

Sure, Connacht and Zebre lose a bit of money. But the Heineken Cup isn't there to subsidise clubs, it's there to provide the highest quality in European club rugby.

I think the fairest (but admittedly more complicated) way of doing it would be:
Top 6 teams of the Pro12
Top 6 teams of the Premiership
Top 6 teams of the Top14

A: Suppose that two nations are represented in the top 6 of the Pro12. Then from the following list, whichever applies first:
1. The winner of the HEC if they don't get into their domestic top 6.
2a. If a team enters the HEC through 1., then a playoff between the highest ranked of the two other nations not represented in the top 6 of the Pro12.
2b. If a team doesn't enter the HEC through 1., then the highest ranked clubs of the two other nations not represented in the top 6 of the Pro12.

B: Suppose that three nations are represented in the top 6 of the Pro12. Then from the following list, whichever applies first:
1. The winner of the previous HEC if they don't get into their domestic top 6.
2. The highest-ranked club of the nation not represented in the top 6 of the Pro12.
3. The runner-up of the previous HEC if they don't get into their domestic top 6.
4. The winner of the Amlin if they don't get into their domestic top 6.
5. The seventh placed club of the domestic league which the winners of the previous HEC are in.
6. The eighth placed club of the domestic league which the winners of the previous HEC are in.

C: Suppose all four nations are represented in the top 6 of the Pro12. Then two from the following list, whichever applies first:
1. The winner of the previous HEC if they don't get into their domestic top 6.
2. The runner-up of the previous HEC if they don't get into their domestic top 6.
3. The winner of the previous Amlin if they don't get into their domestic top 6.
4. The seventh placed club of the domestic league which the winners of the previous HEC are in.
5. The seventh placed club of the domestic league which the runners-up of the previous HEC are in.
6. The winner of a play-off between the seventh placed teams of the two other leagues.

Gives 20 teams. 5 groups of 4. 5 winners, 3 best runner-ups. Not likely for there to be some woefully inadequate teams. In the unlikely event a play-off needs to be played, it happens a week before the season starts in place of a warm-up friendly.
 
But the Heineken Cup isn't there to subsidise clubs, it's there to provide the highest quality in European club rugby.

I think this is the crux of the argument. The HEC isn't there to subsidise clubs, but it is there to develop the game across the 6 unions who set it up. It is not the UE£A champion$ league and long may it remain not the UE£A champion$ league where money is God.

Personally, I'd be abhorred if we turned our back on the game in what are currently the weaker countries in the chase for a few easy ££/€€. Lets face it, none of the Italian provinces would qualify for the HEC, they would be unable to attract good players (who would help teach their homegrown youth players) and the whole Italian game would suffer as a result.

At the same time I do not like the current "no-matter where you finish, you'll qualify if you are Scottish or Italian" approach. I would not disagree with it being modified so that only the leading teams from Scotland/Italy would qualify.

If your going for a 20 team make up.

Top 6 English.
Top 6 French.
Top Scottish team in Pro12
Top Italian team in Pro12
Top Welsh team in Pro12
Top Irish team in Pro 12
2 next top clubs in Pro12
Previous yrs HEC and Amlin winners (extend that league's allocation if they qualify by league position as well).

[chances are, it'd mean that the top4 of the Rabo12, which are the league play-offs, would make the HEC - the only way it couldn't happen would be if the Irish (or Welsh) locked out the top 4 altogether]

But going with the top 6 from each league I think would be, not just a step, but a leap backwards for development of the game in Europe.


The current English argument (which is all about the PRL clubs accumulating more money) comes across much worse than the French desire to reduce the numbers from 24 to 20. It smacks of the incumbents (England) trying to keep down the developing nations (Italy in this instance) through increasing the financial imbalance. Yet you guys somehow can't see how that would **** the rest of us off.
 
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Representatives of ERC stakeholders met in Dublin today (Tuesday, 18 September 2012) to begin the formulation of a new Accord which provides for the structure and format of European club rugby tournaments for the 2014/15 season and beyond.


The meeting included productive discussions regarding the future of the club game in Europe with a general resolve among all stakeholders to reach agreement towards a new Accord.

It was decided that all parties would continue the consultative process at a meeting in Rome on 8 October 2012.

With the objective of creating an opportunity for a positive outcome for European club competitions, it was agreed that there would be limited comment from stakeholders at this time.

The current Accord, which was agreed by all stakeholders in 2007, includes a provision for parties to confirm their intention to seek a renegotiation while the structure and format of both tournaments remain in place for a further two years until the end of the 2013/14 season.

ERC received formal applications on 1 June 2012 from the Federation Francaise de Rugby, the Ligue Nationale de Rugby and Premiership Rugby for such a renegotiation.

http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/news/18591.php

Not much real info released.

We'll probably be able to tell more by what is, or isn't said in the coming days.
 
Simple enough what's been said - The French want to collaborate with all or nothing.

However the Celts like their cosy cubby holes and the *******-Arrogant-English won't bend. see opening thread post saying how strong the Top 14 becomes.

Watch the while thing drag out.
 
Simple enough what's been said - The French want to collaborate with all or nothing.

However the Celts like their cosy cubby holes and the *******-Arrogant-English won't bend. see opening thread post saying how strong the Top 14 becomes.

Watch the while thing drag out.

You got all that from the meeting today?
Wow. You should be working on Fleet Street. :rolleyes:
 

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