PRL & FNR: "Bugger off celts"

[ZeFrenchy]

They raise their "concerns" when it nears the time a new deal is being negotiated interestingly enough. As said before it's about the money.

Found this article pretty good.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0823/1224322767248.html

That's a pretty bad article... the journalist should learn to read (and understand what he reads) before writing. You should be a bit more demanding with what you read. Agreeing with it is not enough to consider an article "good".

This complaint from the French and English has two sides. The first one is purely financial: it would be more profitable to have only good teams, it would be cheaper to have less teams in terms of travel, and having less teams makes the pool games more interesting and as most teams play only pool games, they would get more revenue from the comp. Remember that France would still have 6 teams under the 20-side system, so those same sides would make more money. That they bring this up only when the new deal is being negotiated is because it makes no sense to discuss it before. Though it was no secret that they were not happy about it before, the French press at least makes it clear all the time, as do the clubs and the FFR. It is "new" only to the celts.

The second one, far behind in importance, has to due with "fairness". The journalist is wrong, as it is obvious that Leinster and Munster would in all likelihood qualify anyway. The unfair advantage comes from the fact no team takes the Rabo12 seriously until the playoffs, so the top sides don't need to play their strongest side and can focus on the ERC. This is very secondary though. The fact that when english or french sides were dominating the competition they were still complaining about it, is proof of it.

 

[Thingimubob]

I find it unfair to say 'no team takes the Rabo12 seriously until the playoffs' from a Welsh perspective. The regions simply do not have the money to run the same size quality squads that Leinster, Munster and the top French and English teams have, so play pretty much the same squad is used in both the league and HC. Like I mentioned before, this seasons even worse with massive player drain out of Wales with a ridiculous number of players leaving for France and England. They flash their wads of cash and buy up all our talent then complain that we have it too easy...daft

 

[welshglory]

It's the regions fault though for running themselves into the dumps.

Even as an Ospreys fan i have no sympathy for them or any of the other regions.

 

[Thingimubob]

It's the regions fault though for running themselves into the dumps in the past.

Their finances might not look so bleak now.

Even as an Ospreys fan i have no sympathy for them or any of the other regions.

Oh I agree that the finances have never been run all that well, but even if everything had been run perfectly I still couldnt see them being able to compete with the money that the French can offer.

 

[welshglory]

Yea i see what you mean.

We will continue to be a farming ground pretty much like the French ligue 1 etc.. in football. Unless the WRU starts doing top up contracts we will continue to lose players. I don't think central contracts would work because it would mean our internationals would play even less for their regions.

But as Mark McCafferty has said we (Welsh) are caught in the middle. Most of the time we treat the Pro 12 with respect, we play strong teams and try to compete in it the best we can.

I think they're aiming it more at the Scottish and Italians for being uncompetitive and underserving of HC spots, and the Irish for resting their internationals in the Pro 12 pretty much every round.

 

[psychic duck]

I find it unfair to say 'no team takes the Rabo12 seriously until the playoffs' from a Welsh perspective. The regions simply do not have the money to run the same size quality squads that Leinster, Munster and the top French and English teams have, so play pretty much the same squad is used in both the league and HC.

Like I mentioned before, this seasons even worse with massive player drain out of Wales with a ridiculous number of players leaving for France and England. They flash their wads of cash and buy up all our talent then complain that we have it too easy...daft

That is wrong. You'd never see a Cardiff Blues team like this in the H Cup.

Cardiff Blues: 15 Dan Fish, 14 Harry Robinson, 13 Gavin Evans, 12 Gareth Davies, 11 Tom James, 10 Ceri Sweeney, 9 Lewis Jones, 8 Andries Pretorius (c), 7 Josh Navidi, 6 Rory Watts-Jones, 5 James Down, 4 Robin Copeland, 3 Taufa'ao Filise, 2 Andi Kyriacou, 1 Thomas Davies.

Likewise the Ospreys were happy to rest Ryan Jones and Adam Jones on Friday.

There is barely ever one match in the RaboPro12 with two full strength teams playing each other.

And remember, the English and French teams aren't exactly asking for most of the league to be dumped, they are just asking for Zebre and Edinburgh to have to earn the right to play in the H Cup.

I shouldn't think their demands in terms of format would make much difference to Leinster for example, who would be pretty much certain of getting top 6 even without a few internationals.

Also having a league where a match between 7th and 6th at the end of the end of season actually had something to play for in it would be better than it being a dead rubber.

 

[welshglory]

I think that having Treviso and Zebre/Aironi in the league has made the resting/rotation worse.

 

[Thingimubob]

Caught in the middle is exactly how I feel, not much we can do about it, cant really go make our own league with 4 teams!
Is it truly a european competition if you exclude the Italian and Scottish teams though (if they dont qualify via a top 6 finish - easily possible). if qualification does change, I'd like the top team of each nation qualifies automatically and the rest qualify via league position.

Didn't actually realise they wanted to make the HC smaller. Almost as bad an idea as making the RWC smaller if you ask me.

 

[welshglory]

I think it should be 1 Italian and Scottish team minimum. The other team has to earn the right because they are not competitive at the moment.
Zebre having a few seasons in the Amlin would be really good for them and their development and would actually make the Amlin a legitimate Euro comp.

Edit: Although in truth i wouldn't really care if it was just the top 6 in the Pro 12

What's the point in them playing Clermont and being destroyed 70-0?

Edit: They want to make the HC smaller so it is more streamlined and doesn't cross over so many other competitions and also so that the Amlin can have more Euro teams in it. I like the idea.

 

[psychic duck]

Caught in the middle is exactly how I feel, not much we can do about it, cant really go make our own league with 4 teams!
Is it truly a european competition if you exclude the Italian and Scottish teams though (if they dont qualify via a top 6 finish - easily possible). if qualification does change, I'd like the top team of each nation qualifies automatically and the rest qualify via league position.

Didn't actually realise they wanted to make the HC smaller. Almost as bad an idea as making the RWC smaller if you ask me.

At least one of the Scots normally gets top 6.

But it depends if you want the best teams in Europe, or less same country matches and more nations teams.

In football, many argue that they have gone too far in giving too many European nations clubs slots and many feel it has made the group stages more boring and more uncompetitive.

On the otherhand, maybe it would benefit a team like Zebre more to play some more winnable matches in the Amlin Challenge Cup against the like of London Welsh, Mont-de-Marsan or Worcester rather than being stuck as no hopers in Heineken Cup.

 

[welshglory]

In football every country has to have their own domestic competition as well if they are professional.

If they had a league similar to the Pro 12 i'm pretty sure that they would be having the same debate.

 

[big ginger 8]

That's a pretty bad article... the journalist should learn to read (and understand what he reads) before writing. You should be a bit more demanding with what you read. Agreeing with it is not enough to consider an article "good".

This complaint from the French and English has two sides. The first one is purely financial: it would be more profitable to have only good teams, it would be cheaper to have less teams in terms of travel, and having less teams makes the pool games more interesting and as most teams play only pool games, they would get more revenue from the comp. Remember that France would still have 6 teams under the 20-side system, so those same sides would make more money. That they bring this up only when the new deal is being negotiated is because it makes no sense to discuss it before. Though it was no secret that they were not happy about it before, the French press at least makes it clear all the time, as do the clubs and the FFR. It is "new" only to the celts.

The second one, far behind in importance, has to due with "fairness". The journalist is wrong, as it is obvious that Leinster and Munster would in all likelihood qualify anyway. The unfair advantage comes from the fact no team takes the Rabo12 seriously until the playoffs, so the top sides don't need to play their strongest side and can focus on the ERC. This is very secondary though. The fact that when english or french sides were dominating the competition they were still complaining about it, is proof of it.

No. I never said I agreed with it all, some points I didn't. Maybe we look for different things in an article you can tell yourself I just look for articles I agree with but that's just not true. I think it's just about the money not at all about "fairness". It's not a coincidence that they start saying it coming up to the time that they need to get into a strong position for negotiations.

 

[smartcooky]

An English team would want to cop on and win the thing soon, otherwise it just sounds like mouthing. The system is essentially the same one that was in operation when Saints, Tigers and Wasps were winning ***les and yet we heard none of this moaning back then. If I remember correctly in fact it was said that the competitive nature of the Premiership gave English sides an advantage as they were more battle hardened than the CL teams.

So what has happened? How has this "competitive nature" suddenly become a disadvantage?

Well its not all that hard to understand why. Premiership teams flog their players mercilessly... they are sacrificed on the altar of the almighty Euro! Too little rest, too many hard matches. If they keep staying that course, they must eventually break their players.

Keep playing them while they are injured, they play below par.

Rest them only when they are injured instead of before, they are out of the game longer because they not only have to recover from the injury itself, they have to rebuild muscle tone after the lengthy break.

The players are rugby's greatest asset. Why does the Premiership continue to abuse them week after week, month after month, season after season?

 

[Teh Mite]

Strength vs a salary cap in a system which success is dependant on an for survival. Otherwise known as a club sport.

Over excitement over test rugby is the route cause, e.g. England v Australia used to mean something... 3 tests a year and suddenly it doesn't.

 

[Amiga500]

The English and French teams threatened to pull out in 2006 and 2007. Back then there were 3 English sides in the semi finals, and there was plenty of moaning.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2006/mar/30/rugbyunion.gdnsport3
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/6269979.stm
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/2310275/Premiership-clubs-join-Heineken-Cup-boycott.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2007/apr/02/rugbyunion.sport1

1. The argument was about money; indeed, what about this from Serge Blanco:

"In 10 years of the Heineken Cup, only once has an English or French team not won it," said Blanco. (Ulster won in 1999). "The Celts are profiting from us and that is unacceptable. We could boycott the Heineken Cup and our clubs would not lose money. We could do without it."

2. Argument over share rights in ERC.
3. Argument over share rights in ERC.
4. Argument over share rights in ERC.


Nowhere do I see an argument over the strength of the Celtic sides, or the structure of the Celtic league and qualification.


Lets face it - even if the English and French clubs were given exactly what they wanted right now, in a couple of years time they'd be moaning about something else.

 

[TrueSlawter]

That is wrong. You'd never see a Cardiff Blues team like this in the H Cup.

Cardiff Blues: 15 Dan Fish, 14 Harry Robinson, 13 Gavin Evans, 12 Gareth Davies, 11 Tom James, 10 Ceri Sweeney, 9 Lewis Jones, 8 Andries Pretorius (c), 7 Josh Navidi, 6 Rory Watts-Jones, 5 James Down, 4 Robin Copeland, 3 Taufa'ao Filise, 2 Andi Kyriacou, 1 Thomas Davies.

Likewise the Ospreys were happy to rest Ryan Jones and Adam Jones on Friday.

Ryan was out injured so only really rested Adam. As for the blues that really is pretty close to their full strength side, 3-4 changes to it (Halfpenny, Roberts, Cuthbert and Warburton are the main ones rested / out)

However change would be good, Top 6 or whatever but have agreements in place that all the welsh/scottish/italian "star" players dont get snapped up by the english / french etc as that then doesnt really promote "fairness" like they are asking..

 

[Draggs]

Blues back five in the pack is almost entirely different (probably): Davies, Reed, Paterson, Warburton, Pretorius.
Front row is anybody's call. Inside backs will probably change (Tovey, Patchell, Owen Williams/Cory Allen, Roberts are all possible).

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

First of all I'm typing this on a phone so I expect predictive text to **** me over a wee bit.

O.k. I've been thinking about this a lot recently and I've come to the conclusion that that the 20 man tournament is the best way to go. The way I have come to this conclusion is mainly by looking at the champions league structure and how it works perfectly in awarding consistency at a high level through the qualification system and a high level of rugby in the competition.

A twenty team tournament with four groups of five is the best way to go because it means the best two teams in each group go through and thus ending the whole idea of coming second in a group consisting of lets say foe arguments sake Leinster Leicester Clermont and the Ospreys and going out where as second out of Cardiff Racing metro connacht and exceter goes through.

There'll be some people calling for the Italians but a successful Hcup for Italian sides.is usually to win a match and they often fail in this let a successful season for them actually qualifying for the competition.

This is unlikely to happen though with the WRU, SRU FIRA????? and the IR FU all completely going against the motion but it would be the fairest way and would make the Amlin almost worthwhile.

 

[TrueSlawter]

Blues back five in the pack is almost entirely different (probably): Davies, Reed, Paterson, Warburton, Pretorius.
Front row is anybody's call. Inside backs will probably change (Tovey, Patchell, Owen Williams/Cory Allen, Roberts are all possible).

My bad, totally forgot about Davies / Reed / Tovey.

 

[smartcooky]

First of all I'm typing this on a phone so I expect predictive text to **** me over a wee bit.

O.k. I've been thinking about this a lot recently and I've come to the conclusion that that the 20 man tournament is the best way to go. The way I have come to this conclusion is mainly by looking at the champions league structure and how it works perfectly in awarding consistency at a high level through the qualification system and a high level of rugby in the competition.

A twenty team tournament with four groups of five is the best way to go because it means the best two teams in each group go through and thus ending the whole idea of coming second in a group consisting of lets say foe arguments sake Leinster Leicester Clermont and the Ospreys and going out where as second out of Cardiff Racing metro connacht and exceter goes through.

There'll be some people calling for the Italians but a successful Hcup for Italian sides.is usually to win a match and they often fail in this let a successful season for them actually qualifying for the competition.

This is unlikely to happen though with the WRU, SRU FIRA????? and the IR FU all completely going against the motion but it would be the fairest way and would make the Amlin almost worthwhile.

Four groups of five will not work. With the current six groups of four, it takes six rounds to complete the pool stages (each team plays the other three teams in their pool twice, once at home and once away)

With Four Groups of five, each team plays the other four teams in their group twice so you would think it would take eight rounds to complete, but in fact because the groups have odd numbers, one team cannot play each round, they have a bye. So that takes an extra two weeks to deal with that. In fact, it will take 10 rounds to complete the pool stages. If you don't understand that last bit, think about this. It takes the same number of rounds to complete a pool of five as it does a pool of six.

In order to run it, you will need to find and extra four weeks in the season to play the pool stages, an impossibility without major reorganisation of the NH domestic season.

Your suggested system works in the Champions League because it is a mid-week tournament. There would be nothing unusual in a team like Manchester United playing an EPL game on Friday night, a Champions League match on Tuesday night, and another EPL game the following Saturday - three games in eight days. I can't see any Rugby Players Association agreeing to this for Rugby