People that **** me off

[RoyalBlueStuey]

I just don't DO religion. It's just a pointless waste of time on made-up stories if you ask me!
I have better people to worhip...... like Ben
[/b]

Well I can't really find fault with your devotions Mrs C.

Webby, I'm not going to try and define the indefinable...Jesus did exist, there's loads of independant accounts. There's no point trying to move people's viewpoint on this, life's too short, you either believe or you don't...it doesn't make you a good or bad person either way.

SB

 

[SaintsFan_Webby]

you either believe or you don't...it doesn't make you a good or bad person either way.
[/b]

Well actually supposing, just supposing for a moment, I happened to be wrong, I would in fact be going straight to hell. Because by not believing I would be classed as a bad person.

But if I wanted to go down that route I would have chosen to do Philosophy rather than English.

 

[RoyalBlueStuey]

Well actually supposing, just supposing for a moment, I happened to be wrong, I would in fact be going straight to hell. Because by not believing I would be classed as a bad person.

[/b]

Why would you go to hell? Are you a bad person? The good go to heaven the bad rot in hell, trust me on this mate, God's a good'n....we'll all get up there and it'll be ace. The likes of me will get permission to be smug as anything though

 

[sanzar]

I don't know many people who don't believe Jesus existed... that's generally pretty accpeted. It's just the word of the bible that makes one question Chrisitanity... This was a book written by men, and none of those men were Jesus, so it would be reasonable (though cynical, but that is the way in which the world must be viewed without evidence to the contrary) to suggest that those writing their accounts present in the bible did so inserting their own personal imperfections and agenda's into it.

 

[SaintsFan_Webby]

<div class='quotemain'>

Well actually supposing, just supposing for a moment, I happened to be wrong, I would in fact be going straight to hell. Because by not believing I would be classed as a bad person.

[/b]

Why would you go to hell? Are you a bad person? The good go to heaven the bad rot in hell, trust me on this mate, God's a good'n....we'll all get up there and it'll be ace. The likes of me will get permission to be smug as anything though
[/b][/quote]

Oh no, I'm going down there for far more than not just believing.

Believe me.

 

[O'Rothlain]

Well actually supposing, just supposing for a moment, I happened to be wrong, I would in fact be going straight to hell. Because by not believing I would be classed as a bad person.
[/b]

Sucks to be you then, right?
Firstly we must come to a conclusion in the debate of "Are there Absolutes?" Are there absolutes? I as a Christian obviously believe they exist, otherwise I wouldn't care so much. If there aren't any absolutes, then who cares about God, and Hell and Heaven and spirituality?
You have a moral dilemna in front of you: If you don't believe in Jesus of Nazareth being Christ as the Messiah and the means of reconciliation to the ancient monotheastic diety of the Jewish people and this is an absolute, you go to hell. If, however you don't believe in it and it's not correct you don't.
I happen to believe in it. I have approximately 6,000 years worth of text and accounts that lead me to believe that there is something to the persistent claim of the God of the Hebrews.

 

[sanzar]

<div class='quotemain'>
Well actually supposing, just supposing for a moment, I happened to be wrong, I would in fact be going straight to hell. Because by not believing I would be classed as a bad person.
[/b]

Sucks to be you then, right?
Firstly we must come to a conclusion in the debate of "Are there Absolutes?" Are there absolutes? I as a Christian obviously believe they exist, otherwise I wouldn't care so much. If there aren't any absolutes, then who cares about God, and Hell and Heaven and spirituality?
You have a moral dilemna in front of you: If you don't believe in Jesus of Nazareth being Christ as the Messiah and the means of reconciliation to the ancient monotheastic diety of the Jewish people and this is an absolute, you go to hell. [/b][/quote]

So, just to clarify, this means that, for example, every sinlge Aboriginal in Australia before white settlement went to hell because they weren't exposed to western religion and didn't hear of such things?

 

[O'Rothlain]

There does exist the belief in purgatory and innosense. It's a widely debated topic in the christian world.
To be honest, I would hope not...but I have no clear theological statement either way. If I can gather one thing from the text that exists is that God has a sense of true justice. So, I really don't know. I do believe, though, once someone has the knowledge, it is their responsibility to do something with it.

Let's look at the story of the Garden of Eden. Clearly they were safe until they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Once they "knew" everything changed (responsiblities, ect...).

We can also look at who their ancestors were? Did we all come from the same person origionally? Was there a defining moment in pre-history when mankind was split up or seperated amongst the continents? If so, did their forefathers not origionally have the same knowledge everyone else did? Whose fault was it that this knowledge was lost? Good questions in my mind.

 

[sanzar]

There does exist the belief in purgatory and innosense. It's a widely debated topic in the christian world.
To be honest, I would hope not...but I have no clear theological statement either way. [/b]

See, this to me is one of those more disturbing aspects of Christianity... The Aboriginal people of Australia were far more harmonious with nature and eachother than the white christian settlers who came here with convicts, yet it is they who are considered ignorant and condemmed to hell or purgatory?

If I were to become religious at any point it is stuff like this that would be steering me towards Buddhism.

 

[O'Rothlain]

<div class='quotemain'>
There does exist the belief in purgatory and innosense. It's a widely debated topic in the christian world.
To be honest, I would hope not...but I have no clear theological statement either way. [/b]

See, this to me is one of those more disturbing aspects of Christianity... The Aboriginal people of Australia were far more harmonious with nature and eachother than the white christian settlers who came here with convicts, yet it is they who are considered ignorant and condemmed to hell or purgatory?

If I were to become religious at any point it is stuff like this that would be steering me towards Buddhism.
[/b][/quote]
This has nothing to do with the white man. The white man adopted christianity from eastern religious thought. I also think we don't clearly understand what purgatory is. I am going to assume by your statements you view it as bad, whilst I am saying more of a resting place for the soul. Neither good nor bad, but a calm holding tank of sorts for innocents. My celtic/gaelic ancestors were harmonious with nature as well. Christ encouraged us to be caretakers, and dogooders. He said that we would be known by our love for one another. The problem is you are dealing with modern christianity that has evolved throughout time. I am dealing with Christ, his teachings and the biblical context of how we should be living. I think everyone will have a chance to accept or reject salvation. The bible preaches free will.

 

[ak47]

heck this is soo funny

ur all arguing

and why

religion

just get rid of it......and u rid of the conflict

its common sense

none of us were direclty involved in these past events of these religous beliefs

so how do you know any of it is actually true??

is there some kind of video on youtube dating back to 200BC

bickering over something you have BEEN TOLD, not something u actually saw or took part in

good luck to yas

My beliefs lie with my Family...my hope lies within my ownself, and my own actions.

My bible/koran is my family album.........my future is dependent upon me.

Nothing will change the fact that the religous folk believe in things they never ever SAW, or took part in

WELL GUESS WHAT..........I come from Pluto....i eat plants from Mars, and go holidaying in Uranus.........Jupiter is my enemy, and the moon is the dunny...if someone was hell bent enough billions of years ago to feed this down ones throat....this would have its own religion too...and i would be the 'GOD'

and all this disagreeing with certain elements of a religion...is evidence of chinese whispers thru generations and generations

good luck to ya...god wont save u from early death...only you can do that..behave and be healthy

i now google the latest drunk driver to kill a group of nuns, and see if god helped them from this drunk fool

Heaven n Hell.........another unproven belief

have ur beliefs, but dont try and get me into it...i'll watch from the sidelines and drink my beer, and call mum to say gday

 

[Mr. Laxative]

I would say the story of creation but then we'll go around in circles for the rest of time (or until someone discovers something revolutionary).

It's quite a large category, but how about Jesus? What evdience is there he existed? What evidence is there for any of the supposed 'mircales' he performed? What makes him or his actions any more real than the lead character in the latest fictional novel?

And before any claims of being patronising are thrown my way, these are genuine questions.
[/b]

Um, just to point something out here, the story of creation is infact a story found in the holy books (not stories) of three major semitic religions: Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Also, many religions and/or beliefs (getting at the Australian Aboriginals here) have there own creation stories. They don't necessarily have to be true, nor do people have to believe them 100% (and to be honest I don't really listen to people who do) they're just there as a way of thinking about the world. Just like any other good story.

The Bible is not a book as many people believe, but a canon of a number of books. A collection if you will. There are many other books relating to Jesus not included, because the Council of Nicea decided not to include them. Not all stories considered for the Bible are narratives. Some (such as The Gospel of Thomas) are a simple collection of sayings attributed to Jesus. There is very little proof that this guy performed 'miracles' as stated in the Gospels in the Bible, but to say he did not exist is a very negative way of thinking considering all the books written about him; many believed to be written by people who knew him (disciples). Claiming Jesus didn't exist is like saying Moses didn't exist, Prophet Mohammed never existed, Buddha never existed, Confuscious never existed and so on. Just because there is no solid proof doesn't mean it should be ignored - does it? Why can't everyone accept others and their religions rather than taking a blind eye to something they don't believe in? That goes for everyone - even people thathave no set religion or atheists. Actually, those people should be generally more accepting as they shouldn't be so biased towards one religion of the other - they can look over all of them equally.

And when talking of dinosaurs, we can't just say they never existed or didn't die out before humans came into being. Sure carbon-dating is somewhat innaccurate, but that doesn't mean people can't believe what they have read or what they have been told or what they have learned or what they have discovered.

To put it simply good science requires an aknowledgement of all religions and good religion requires an aknowledgement of science (and all other religions). Just because someone doesn't believe something doesn't all of a sudden make it incorrect, nor does a vast number of people who don't believe something make it incorrect, because there are always people who have opposing opinions.


It is the people that can't aknowledge that there are opposing opinions (valid or invalid) to their's that **** me off.

 

[C A Iversen]

Either way, this religious debate better not spill off into any other threads. It has started here and can go on here for forever as far as I'm concerned (and it will), but it won't filter elsewhere, ok? Unless you guys start a religion thread, which if it got out of hand won't be around for long either.

I'm pretty sure that there are religious forums for this kind of thing somewhere. I'd rather you guys found them.

As for the fact that we all talk about a whole world of topics here on the rugby forum, well thats true. Although this is an argument which eventually turns bad.

I've seen it in Newspaper letters coloumns for as long as I can ever remember, with people writing in with their "convincing" argument. It never gets resolved.

Although in saying all of the above I respect your right to discuss emotive topics on the forum.

I hope it stays seemly, and the fellow mods involved don't get swept up into what inevitably becomes a "my beliefs are right and yours are wrong" debate.

Good luck finding the answers, boys and girls.

 

[MonoTurd]

I agree with mr Iversen, this debate will never be resolved.

but the thing that ****** me off about the whole religion debate is that people refuse to accept that there is no such thing as a perfect thought. All religions are right in their own way, and no one has any right to take that away.

I, personally, am not religious. I have always been quite skeptical about the whole idea, but that doesnt mean that I think they are wrong and the same should go to all the other non-believers out there. Just because you think its wrong, doesnt mean it is.

Some people who know me personally and have read this will think that I am contradicting myself but after reading some recent posts, this is now where I stand.

There is no ultimate answer

 

[sanzar]

Either way, this religious debate better not spill off into any other threads. It has started here and can go on here for forever as far as I'm concerned (and it will), but it won't filter elsewhere, ok? Unless you guys start a religion thread, which if it got out of hand won't be around for long either.

I'm pretty sure that there are religious forums for this kind of thing somewhere. I'd rather you guys found them.

As for the fact that we all talk about a whole world of topics here on the rugby forum, well thats true. Although this is an argument which eventually turns bad.

I've seen it in Newspaper letters coloumns for as long as I can ever remember, with people writing in with their "convincing" argument. It never gets resolved.

[/b]

Well yeah, it's your classic "faith v proof" argument... it's unsolvable, but hey, that doesn't mean we can't debate it... I don't think it's gone anywhere near getting out of hand yet, and for the most part it's been civil.

 

[SaintsFan_Webby]

All religions are right in their own way, and no one has any right to take that away.
[/b]

Surely that can't possibly be true though.

A maximum of one religion can be correct. It's impossible that there are more than that which are right.

That's why there has always been so much violence regarding religion, extremists cannot bring themselves to even contemplate that anyone's religion but their own is correct.

 

[Mr. Laxative]

Just another thing. Anyone heard of the Jesus Sutras? These are texts written in the Chinese language which speaks of Jesus and his messages. What is interesting however, is that these sutras speak of reincarnation - a belief not held widely in ANY Christian church (I say ANY as there are many denominations of Christianity alone and none hold this belief strongly).

What is the also interesting is the "pagodas" found in China and other parts of Asia which feature images of Jesus, Buddha, and another which I currently cannot remember. These are all combined into one symbol, showing a unity unknown in the Western world, particularly between Christianity and Islam.

This image and the sutras give further reason to believe that these people did in fact exist, for how could Jesus's teachings be so wide spread in many forms if not for this. Also the dates of each religion are not set in stone which may further suggest that maybe Jesus was Buddha and Buddha was another and so on. Maybe it is a simple interpretation of one person that creates many religions. No?

Just think about that for a minute. Why can't we get along if it were just a simple misinterpretation? Why are there wars fought (mostly) between Christians, Jews and Muslims when all of their basic beliefs is based on the same books (known to Christians as the Old Testament)?

<div class='quotemain'>
All religions are right in their own way, and no one has any right to take that away.
[/b]

Surely that can't possibly be true though.

A maximum of one religion can be correct. It's impossible that there are more than that which are right.

That's why there has always been so much violence regarding religion, extremists cannot bring themselves to even contemplate that anyone's religion but their own is correct.
[/b][/quote]

But that my friend is quite simply their own belief. That their religion is the one right one. Wars certainly have been fought over religion, but no religion can be right for everyone. It depends on the perosn.

The people that do not recognise the above statement annoy me greatly. For any person to rule out any religion other than their's as the right one is ludicrous, because not everyone is the same.

 

[C A Iversen]

<div class='quotemain'>
All religions are right in their own way, and no one has any right to take that away.
[/b]

Surely that can't possibly be true though.

A maximum of one religion can be correct. It's impossible that there are more than that which are right.

[/b][/quote]

How so, Webby? If one person believes peanut butter is tasty and another thinks jam is, who's right if the third guy likes peanut butter and jelly together?

Is anyone ever right or wrong with such a subjective subject?

 

[SaintsFan_Webby]

Religion is based on stories/documents/whatever you want to call them, with the whole belief system based around them being true.

How can the texts surrounding all religions be right if they contradict and disagree with each other so much?

If Islam turned out to be the correct view on God, the world, the meaing of life etc, then how could Christianity, Judaism or any other religion possibly be right as well?

 

[187]

well this thread keeps getting more and more complicated eh!
i am a christian, i was brought up in a very stricht christian upbringing and my dad is a super intendant in the church.
i lost my faith basically becoz i now don't believe there is a god, i look around and see all the pain and suffering and can't imagine what kind of god wud do such a thing or let something like this happen.
i also think alot about the "choice" we are given by god. it's bullshit, yeah u can choose to be good or bad but the choice is influenced by going to heaven or hell, what kind of choice is that he's basically twisting our arm.
i also wonder y wud god send his only begotten son jesus down to earth some 2000 years ago to save the world, don't u think todays world is in more need of saviour than they were 2000 years ago? i don't think they exactly had planes flying into buildings or missiles killing thousands of ppl, there is so much confusion in the world with all the different beliefs and religions nowadays don't u think we need a saviour more than ever?