Paddy Obrien apologises to AB's for Dickinson's Poor Performance

[orac54]

This does seem to be a unique situation. Even if, in the past, a referee has obviously had an unacceptable shocker at intl level, then the dirty washing has been kept indoors and that ref just doesn't get an appointment for a while (as happened to Dickinson after NZ vs Eng in 2002 and the head-stamp incident - so he has previous). For O'Brien to be saying that he'll be treating a referee like Henry would a player (ie dropping him and potentially never picking him again) explicitly, must be unprecedented.

Which is in its way good. Except to point out that Steve Walsh is still, TTBOMK, still on the International Panel, is a New Zealander, and O'Brien hasn't made the same threat about him, despite manifestly more unacceptable behaviour than Dickinson's.

Just a thought.

 

[Bernard]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nickdnz @ Nov 18 2009, 01:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (stormer2010 @ Nov 19 2009, 01:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nickdnz @ Nov 18 2009, 07:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fcukernaut @ Nov 18 2009, 04:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't really approve of the head of the referees union going out and throwing a prominent referee under the bus on principle. However, it is also important that the calls on the field are correct and that the referees are as accountable as the players are. On another note, despite the fact that Hansen has been deemed right he should still be disciplined by the iRB for his comments. It is bad for the image of the game to disparage the referee as a coach it is unacceptable. Discipline should come from the top and only from the top, if a coach or team has a grievance they should file it for proper investigation.[/b]

I can recall both Peter de Villiers claiming that referees don't do their job and don't want SA to win, as I can say that Gatlanbd also made comments about poor refereeing, so I can't see why Hanson should be punished at all.

O'Brien was right to announce publically the issue of the scrum as otherwise it could have a negative impact on Crockett and Tialata's career. To be honest Dickenson I've never rated as a decent referee.
[/b][/quote]


Can't see the problem with Hansen. But why does O'Brien go out of his way to put Dickenson down after he penalised the ABs a bit unfairly while SA are still waiting for a simple clarification on interpretations after a written request months ago? Not that I like Dickenson or think he is a good ref but I have seen much worse go without comment week in and week out and if there is a team in world rugby who get the better from refs in generl it is the Blacks (McCaw in particular). Probably becaue O'Brien is a Kiwi, well I guess its difficult to treat everyone by the same yardstick.
[/b][/quote]
Comments like the AB's get it easy from refs are pointless and idiotic. If they are penalised less it is because referees either don't notice infringements, or the more likely of the two, the All Blacks aren't cheating, end of. To claim the best team in the world (they are now), get the rub of the green consistently with referees seems like a poor excuse for other teams failures, end of.
I have read several criticisms of O'Brien in the past, and most of them have been during 6 nations fixtures, the fact that he publically comments once on an AB game, in which his comments are justified, and he was pressured by Henry for clarifications to what the props are doing wrong, is now an indication of how he favourites the All Blacks?
I agree with smartcooky's conditions towards coach criticising referees, as it seems like a fair way to control some of the stupid accusations that some coaches throw around, and it also offers an opportunity to fairly criticise referees poor performances and make him accountable.
[/b][/quote]


For me , i'm defenitly sure that AB has the best results and the best rugby since rugby existing , i have no doubt about that ...and when i explain my POV , my point is certainly not to excuse defeats ...i do not care . But i want to notice some unfair stuff because there is . Maybe it is a question of rule and rugby culture...no matter what we have to make it up if we want to stop complaining about that ...

When i hear talking about 2007 and Mr Barnes , i laugh because he has not been so unfair overall but yeah he has missed a very little forward that had big consequences (between Michalak and traille ) . i bet if we see 50 tries or actions on random international matches , we would see a lot of forward that has not been noticing by referees ...So...

Every country do same things when it is about defeat or bad match: finding excuses by a lot of different ways ..at the end , we keep on the same way where referees are mastering matches (ans so we keep our mouth shut and accept referees mistakes , even big ones ) or we put camera everywhere and we call videos each time ...

On our precise point , i have not seen the match so i won't be able to tell anything about it ..but that seems to be usual rugby match complaints...

 

[danit]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (darwin_23 @ Nov 17 2009, 09:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

So who here still thinks Italy should have been awarded a penalty try? [/b]

me...

c'mon, POB apologises? the chief of IRB refs? it's a joke...

he might be right or wrong but whenever an IRB official can talk that way?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Simon)</div>

the dirty washing has been kept indoors[/b]

absolutely correct!

what's more, he's wrong

me, I probably don't have a clue of what really happened at scrum time in last 10 minutes, but what about experts, journalists, coaches, both from SH and NH, charging Dickinson for not have awarded the penalty try? all of them incompetent? and what about Chris Rattue on NZH: "As for most of us on the sideline, the reasonable guess was that the All Blacks - who had been plundered by the Italian scrum - were using gamesmanship to protect their line. It was clear that Liam Messam, the blindside flanker, was not binding correctly"

real target: Jonathan Kaplan and England scrum

 

[ShaheenJ]

Couldn't Mr. Barnes also be benched for a while?

 

[darwin_23]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (danit @ Nov 19 2009, 03:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (darwin_23 @ Nov 17 2009, 09:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So who here still thinks Italy should have been awarded a penalty try? [/b]

me...

c'mon, POB apologises? the chief of IRB refs? it's a joke...

he might be right or wrong but whenever an IRB official can talk that way?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Simon)</div>

the dirty washing has been kept indoors[/b]

absolutely correct!

what's more, he's wrong

me, I probably don't have a clue of what really happened at scrum time in last 10 minutes, but what about experts, journalists, coaches, both from SH and NH, charging Dickinson for not have awarded the penalty try? all of them incompetent? and what about Chris Rattue on NZH: "As for most of us on the sideline, the reasonable guess was that the All Blacks - who had been plundered by the Italian scrum - were using gamesmanship to protect their line. It was clear that Liam Messam, the blindside flanker, was not binding correctly"

real target: Jonathan Kaplan and England scrum
[/b][/quote]

Yeah journalists are the real experts on rugby, not the referees :blink:. Having read what these people write most of the time do you seriously believe they actually know half the rules of the game? Chris Rattue knows about as much about rugby as the average Chimpanzee knows about cricket, and he wants the AB's to lose every game, ever since the NZRFU reappointed Graham Henry ahead of Robbie Deans! Even I could see that the Italian tighthead was boring in at almost every scrum, and I know next to nothing about front row play. So you can believe these 'expert' journalists all you want, but I'll chose to believe people who actually know the rules of the game (referees), and my own eyes

 

[C A Iversen]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Logorrhea @ Nov 18 2009, 11:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (C A Iversen @ Nov 18 2009, 01:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Pathetic groundless accusation. Fairly insulting and negative against New Zealanders.[/b]

FFS, you have to be the biggest drama queen I have seen in action in a long time. Me thinks the internets are not for you.
[/b][/quote]
Oh you poor little thing. The internets are not for you if you can't handle my posts either you know.

 

[shtove]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (smartcooky @ Nov 18 2009, 08:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I thought we would be hearing more, but this in not what I expected. I thought Hansen was going to be in deep poodoo for criticising the referee.

Now it seem that Stuart Dickinson is really in the gun!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE

Graham Henry asked for clarity and the All Blacks coach has got that, along with a public apology from IRB referees boss Paddy O'Brien who has admitted Aussie whistle-blower Stu Dickinson got it badly wrong in Italy.

In what is a major off-field victory for the All Blacks, the top referees official in the game, Kiwi O'Brien, travelled especially to the New Zealand team hotel here today to essentially tell Henry and his coaches "you were right".

O'Brien told Stuff.co.nz in an exclusive interview prior to his meeting with Henry and his scrum expert Mike Cron that Dickinson erred in taking such drastic action against the All Blacks at scrum time in the test at the San Siro.

In a rare display of transparency, O'Brien has conceded that Dickinson's performance was sub-standard, that he had been told that in no uncertain terms and that he would be held accountable when future appointments were made.

O'Brien said a review of match footage clearly indicated the Italian tighthead prop (Martin Castrogiavanni and later Salvatore Perugini) was "boring in" on the All Black loosehead and that Dickinson's repeated penalising of the New Zealanders was "completely wrong".

"The best example I can use is in the last 10 minutes there were eight scrums of which seven the tighthead for Italy is purely illegal," said the Invercargill-based O'Brien in a refreshing display of honesty.

"Up here they're crying that it should have been a penalty try. It should have been a penalty first scrum to the All Blacks."

O'Brien's words will at least be reassuring for the New Zealanders ahead of Saturday's test against England. After the match Henry said the area needed "clarity" and on their arrival in London, assistant coach Steve Hansen said referees were "guessing" on their decisions at the set piece.

Italy coach Nick Mallett complained that the All Blacks got off lightly for their scrum infringements, even though Neemia Tialata was sinbinned late in the match from one of the penalties.

But O'Brien has made it clear that Henry was right and Mallett wrong when it came to their reading of events at the San Siro.

"We've got to be fair to teams," O'Brien said. "If the referee is not accurate we've got to put our hand up. We need to educate that referee and get him better because that scrummaging on Saturday was not up to international standard."

O'Brien said Dickinson had been given a DVD that makes it clear where he went wrong and a strong message he needs to lift him game. He has been advised to undertake "scrum coaching" and also told his performance will be taken into account for future appointments.

The IRB's referees boss said Dickinson's rulings had particularly impacted on young All Black loosehead Wyatt Crockett who complained during and after the match about the Italian infringing.

"You've got a young guy trying to launch his test career and get things right and the referee is inaccurate. Then it's our problem," said O'Brien. "We've got to deal with the ref which we will just like Graham deals with a player who is not playing well."[/b]

When you review the last 10 minutes of the test, you can clearly see that Dickinson doesn't have a clue what's going on. His facial expressions tell the story, they are those of a man who has no real idea what he is doing.

The last part I highlighted is the one that I feel is most important. An incompetent refereeing performance can ruin a player's career if it happens early on, especially a prop.

This is a 100% vindication of Steven Hanson's comments., Tialata's Yellow Card must be wiped from his record.

I hope this farce will lead to a MAJOR rethink on the scrummaging Laws. We do not need for this crap to be still happening by 2011.
[/b][/quote]
The article is bullshit. If the laws need justification after the fact then they're not laws.

Scrummaging laws fine, referees variable, ABs whingers.

And props are still fugly, so everything's right with world.

 

[darwin_23]

From this thread I have identified three options for sorting out the farce that occurred at scrum time on Saturday:
(1) make sure the refs understand the scrum rules better (as suggested by Paddy O'Brien)
(2) change the rules so the refs can understand and enforce them correctly (as suggested by smartcooky)
(3) do nothing and just hope the problem miraculously sorts itself out (as suggested by shtove)

 

[Infern0]

I don't care if the Referee's performance was bad, "apologising" to the All Blacks, who get more questionable decisions than any other team in world sport, for it is trash.

***** move by O'Brian, who should of stood by his man.

 

[jawmalawm24]

Bring back rucking and take scrums back to when there was no "crouch, touch, pause, engage" that'll sort it. Also make lineouts no lifting that'll be funny to see again.

 

[Nickdnz]

Man, Infern0, please stfu or stop making anti AB comments, you are a boring poster, as you are so damn predictible.

 

[erwanseb]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nickdnz @ Nov 19 2009, 08:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Man, Infern0, please stfu or stop making anti AB comments, you are a boring poster, as you are so damn predictible.[/b]

Last night referee (France vs Ireland) will feel the heat but to be fair there's no way he could have seen the handball (at hip level and between the player and the goal in the middle of 20 players) from his position, a shame but what can be done about it

1) Replay the game or a penalty kick session, no team was qualified, would be a fair solution
2) Rely on the honnesty of players, dream about it
3) Introduce videos on each goal, FIFA does not want it
4) Accept that game result can be affecetd by referee's mistake and live with it.
5) Give the coaches/captain two appeals per game to allow for video

On average, there are about 3 forward passes which are not penalised during a game of rugby and countless articles read "suspected forward pass in the build up to the try".

To come back to O'brien, I do not think he should have apologized because that creates double standard. Every time a referee mistake, affects the result of a game, coach of the losing side will call for apologies and that will add additional pressure on referees.

The problem should be solved internally at the IRB, behind closed door with a hearing of NZ if necessary, but no public apology should be made except for foul play (corruption,...).

 

[C A Iversen]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nickdnz @ Nov 19 2009, 02:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Man, Infern0, please stfu or stop making anti AB comments, you are a boring poster, as you are so damn predictible.[/b]

This forum is very quickly degenrating into a slag off the All Blacks site. No other team cops as much negative criticism and it has in many occasions past also extended to New Zealanders in general. A recent thread existed in which people spoke of why they disliked New Zealand itself, another where New Zealanders are supposedly overrated in sport. This kind of ongoing crap is not the sort of thing that should be levelled at any country and it's going to have to be dealt with.

This is the internet yes, but people go to sites they enjoy. I've always enjoyed this site, but at times it's just been so negative that I've gone elsewhere for periods of greater and greater time. As have many of New Zealands older members.

This issue should be about a referee, an administrator, a couple of teams scrummaging, rulings and techniques, not ongoing accusations of national bias and comments which suggest one team is cheating it's way to the top. Thats unsportsmanlike and it's time something was done.

 

[Infern0]

**** sake kiwi's i thought you guys could take a bit of stick, if you are that upset about it fine, i will leave the ab's alone.

(ps i did say ab's will thrash england this weekend so im not that horrible to them)

 

[C A Iversen]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Infern0 @ Nov 19 2009, 04:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

**** sake kiwi's i thought you guys could take a bit of stick, if you are that upset about it fine, i will leave the ab's alone.

(ps i did say ab's will thrash england this weekend so im not that horrible to them)[/b]

Take a bit of stick? A bit? Are you for real? It's the damn theme of the whole forum lately!

A "bit" of stick? Seriously? We've copped, "just a bit"?


Since the 2007 semi-final, it's been constant. McCaw cheats! Illegal scrummaging! AB's play on "the other side of the rules". They get more questionable decisions than ANY SIDE IN THE WORLD OF SPORT. Ref's only rule penalties against their opposition. Dirty, thuggish play. You name it, we've done it. We don't deserve any of our wins, because we are cheats apparently.

Look anyone can say anything against a nation and say "I was only joking" at the end. I've just spoken about you in the staff forum and really made a strong case for you being banned. For goodness sake, deal with the issues and stop slagging our country as cheats (OR ANY COUNTRY) , joke or not!

 

[C A Iversen]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Infern0 @ Nov 19 2009, 05:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Banned?

I hope you do, ill just come back you maggot.

You Kiwis are so stupid, someone criticises you and you go crying to the mod's calling for a ban.

YOU CAN'T HANDLE IT

Soft, Pathetic fools.[/b]

Thanks for justifying my case. I am a mod or actually an admin. I can just delete this and ban you myself. Instead I'll just delete your post and only leave it visible in my post as an example of exactly what I was talking about.

 

[QLD]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (C A Iversen @ Nov 18 2009, 11:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MunsterMan @ Nov 18 2009, 11:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Is Paddy O'Brien going to apologise whenever a referee f***s up or only when it has a negative effect on the All Blacks?[/b]

Pathetic groundless accusation. Fairly insulting and negative against New Zealanders. Paddy O'Brien differed massively with All Blacks management about what kind of effort wayne barnes put in. No bias.

This game in the weekend just gone must have over-stepped the mark in terms of inadaquate refereeing and repeated mistakes in a single area of the game. The All Blacks have been being maligned as cheats at the scrum for the last 2-3 years now and it's simply not true. I can't blame an international referees administrator for stepping in to clarify a misconception and poor job by a ref.

Scream bias all you want, but this needed seeing to.
[/b][/quote]

:lol:

 

[Flux]

Gosh, it'd hard living life at the top. B)

 

[Ripper]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MunsterMan @ Nov 18 2009, 11:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Is Paddy O'Brien going to apologise whenever a referee f***s up or only when it has a negative effect on the All Blacks?[/b]

Are you this retarded in real life or is it just an internet persona?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

Probably becaue O'Brien is a Kiwi, well I guess its difficult to treat everyone by the same yardstick.[/b]

:suicide2: yourself.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

**** sake kiwi's i thought you guys could take a bit of stick, if you are that upset about it fine, i will leave the ab's alone.

(ps i did say ab's will thrash england this weekend so im not that horrible to them)[/b]

*****, stay off that blow.

 

[TRUE LEGND]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (C A Iversen @ Nov 19 2009, 04:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Infern0 @ Nov 19 2009, 04:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

**** sake kiwi's i thought you guys could take a bit of stick, if you are that upset about it fine, i will leave the ab's alone.

(ps i did say ab's will thrash england this weekend so im not that horrible to them)[/b]

Take a bit of stick? A bit? Are you for real? It's the damn theme of the whole forum lately!

A "bit" of stick? Seriously? We've copped, "just a bit"?


Since the 2007 semi-final, it's been constant. McCaw cheats! Illegal scrummaging! AB's play on "the other side of the rules". They get more questionable decisions than ANY SIDE IN THE WORLD OF SPORT. Ref's only rule penalties against their opposition. Dirty, thuggish play. You name it, we've done it. We don't deserve any of our wins, because we are cheats apparently.

Look anyone can say anything against a nation and say "I was only joking" at the end. I've just spoken about you in the staff forum and really made a strong case for you being banned. For goodness sake, deal with the issues and stop slagging our country as cheats (OR ANY COUNTRY) , joke or not!
[/b][/quote]

The definition for that is called tall poppy syndrome