Paddy Obrien apologises to AB's for Dickinson's Poor Performance

[smartcooky]

I thought we would be hearing more, but this in not what I expected. I thought Hansen was going to be in deep poodoo for criticising the referee.

Now it seem that Stuart Dickinson is really in the gun!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

Graham Henry asked for clarity and the All Blacks coach has got that, along with a public apology from IRB referees boss Paddy O'Brien who has admitted Aussie whistle-blower Stu Dickinson got it badly wrong in Italy.

In what is a major off-field victory for the All Blacks, the top referees official in the game, Kiwi O'Brien, travelled especially to the New Zealand team hotel here today to essentially tell Henry and his coaches "you were right".

O'Brien told Stuff.co.nz in an exclusive interview prior to his meeting with Henry and his scrum expert Mike Cron that Dickinson erred in taking such drastic action against the All Blacks at scrum time in the test at the San Siro.

In a rare display of transparency, O'Brien has conceded that Dickinson's performance was sub-standard, that he had been told that in no uncertain terms and that he would be held accountable when future appointments were made.

O'Brien said a review of match footage clearly indicated the Italian tighthead prop (Martin Castrogiavanni and later Salvatore Perugini) was "boring in" on the All Black loosehead and that Dickinson's repeated penalising of the New Zealanders was "completely wrong".

"The best example I can use is in the last 10 minutes there were eight scrums of which seven the tighthead for Italy is purely illegal," said the Invercargill-based O'Brien in a refreshing display of honesty.

"Up here they're crying that it should have been a penalty try. It should have been a penalty first scrum to the All Blacks."

O'Brien's words will at least be reassuring for the New Zealanders ahead of Saturday's test against England. After the match Henry said the area needed "clarity" and on their arrival in London, assistant coach Steve Hansen said referees were "guessing" on their decisions at the set piece.

Italy coach Nick Mallett complained that the All Blacks got off lightly for their scrum infringements, even though Neemia Tialata was sinbinned late in the match from one of the penalties.

But O'Brien has made it clear that Henry was right and Mallett wrong when it came to their reading of events at the San Siro.

"We've got to be fair to teams," O'Brien said. "If the referee is not accurate we've got to put our hand up. We need to educate that referee and get him better because that scrummaging on Saturday was not up to international standard."

O'Brien said Dickinson had been given a DVD that makes it clear where he went wrong and a strong message he needs to lift him game. He has been advised to undertake "scrum coaching" and also told his performance will be taken into account for future appointments.

The IRB's referees boss said Dickinson's rulings had particularly impacted on young All Black loosehead Wyatt Crockett who complained during and after the match about the Italian infringing.

"You've got a young guy trying to launch his test career and get things right and the referee is inaccurate. Then it's our problem," said O'Brien. "We've got to deal with the ref which we will just like Graham deals with a player who is not playing well."[/b]

When you review the last 10 minutes of the test, you can clearly see that Dickinson doesn't have a clue what's going on. His facial expressions tell the story, they are those of a man who has no real idea what he is doing.

The last part I highlighted is the one that I feel is most important. An incompetent refereeing performance can ruin a player's career if it happens early on, especially a prop.

This is a 100% vindication of Steven Hanson's comments., Tialata's Yellow Card must be wiped from his record.

I hope this farce will lead to a MAJOR rethink on the scrummaging Laws. We do not need for this crap to be still happening by 2011.

 

[darwin_23]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (smartcooky @ Nov 18 2009, 09:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I thought we would be hearing more, but this in not what I expected. I thought Hansen was going to be in deep poodoo for criticising the referee.

Now it seem that Stuart Dickinson is really in the gun!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE

Graham Henry asked for clarity and the All Blacks coach has got that, along with a public apology from IRB referees boss Paddy O'Brien who has admitted Aussie whistle-blower Stu Dickinson got it badly wrong in Italy.

In what is a major off-field victory for the All Blacks, the top referees official in the game, Kiwi O'Brien, travelled especially to the New Zealand team hotel here today to essentially tell Henry and his coaches "you were right".

O'Brien told Stuff.co.nz in an exclusive interview prior to his meeting with Henry and his scrum expert Mike Cron that Dickinson erred in taking such drastic action against the All Blacks at scrum time in the test at the San Siro.

In a rare display of transparency, O'Brien has conceded that Dickinson's performance was sub-standard, that he had been told that in no uncertain terms and that he would be held accountable when future appointments were made.

O'Brien said a review of match footage clearly indicated the Italian tighthead prop (Martin Castrogiavanni and later Salvatore Perugini) was "boring in" on the All Black loosehead and that Dickinson's repeated penalising of the New Zealanders was "completely wrong".

"The best example I can use is in the last 10 minutes there were eight scrums of which seven the tighthead for Italy is purely illegal," said the Invercargill-based O'Brien in a refreshing display of honesty.

"Up here they're crying that it should have been a penalty try. It should have been a penalty first scrum to the All Blacks."

O'Brien's words will at least be reassuring for the New Zealanders ahead of Saturday's test against England. After the match Henry said the area needed "clarity" and on their arrival in London, assistant coach Steve Hansen said referees were "guessing" on their decisions at the set piece.

Italy coach Nick Mallett complained that the All Blacks got off lightly for their scrum infringements, even though Neemia Tialata was sinbinned late in the match from one of the penalties.

But O'Brien has made it clear that Henry was right and Mallett wrong when it came to their reading of events at the San Siro.

"We've got to be fair to teams," O'Brien said. "If the referee is not accurate we've got to put our hand up. We need to educate that referee and get him better because that scrummaging on Saturday was not up to international standard."

O'Brien said Dickinson had been given a DVD that makes it clear where he went wrong and a strong message he needs to lift him game. He has been advised to undertake "scrum coaching" and also told his performance will be taken into account for future appointments.

The IRB's referees boss said Dickinson's rulings had particularly impacted on young All Black loosehead Wyatt Crockett who complained during and after the match about the Italian infringing.

"You've got a young guy trying to launch his test career and get things right and the referee is inaccurate. Then it's our problem," said O'Brien. "We've got to deal with the ref which we will just like Graham deals with a player who is not playing well."[/b]

When you review the last 10 minutes of the test, you can clearly see that Dickinson doesn't have a clue what's going on. His facial expressions tell the story, they are those of a man who has no real idea what he is doing.

The last part I highlighted is the one that I feel is most important. An incompetent refereeing performance can ruin a player's career if it happens early on, especially a prop.

This is a 100% vindication of Steven Hanson's comments., Tialata's Yellow Card must be wiped from his record.

I hope this farce will lead to a MAJOR rethink on the scrummaging Laws. We do not need for this crap to be still happening by 2011.
[/b][/quote]

So who here still thinks Italy should have been awarded a penalty try?

 

[durbutter]

Please, no more reviewing of the rules. everytime we tinker with it it just gets worse. like a cheap toaster.

 

[shazbooger]

Well that explains the 10 years or so of John Hayes being screwed in the Scrum.

Feckin referees!

 

[MunsterMan]

Is Paddy O'Brien going to apologise whenever a referee f***s up or only when it has a negative effect on the All Blacks?

 

[gingergenius]

Are we supposed to fell sympathetic for Stuart Dickinson or agree with Paddy O'Brien? Either way rankles with me.

Alain Rolland is the only referee I can think of who doesn't get on my ***s.

 

[Nickdnz]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MunsterMan @ Nov 18 2009, 11:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Is Paddy O'Brien going to apologise whenever a referee f***s up or only when it has a negative effect on the All Blacks?[/b]

...Paddy O'Brien has rarley seemed pias, in fact he continued to support Barnes after 2007...

 

[jawmalawm24]

Golden Oldies Scrums that'll fix it. Unfortunately for the 80,000 fans that were watching the last 7min were dominated by a ref that didn't know what he was doing but at least O'Brien has come out and admitted it and hopefully we wont have to put up with anymore boring Rugby due to countless resets of the scrum. To be honest whether Castrogiovani was boring in or not I still think Crocketts not a very good scrummager and still needs to improve alot.

 

[C A Iversen]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MunsterMan @ Nov 18 2009, 11:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Is Paddy O'Brien going to apologise whenever a referee f***s up or only when it has a negative effect on the All Blacks?[/b]

Pathetic groundless accusation. Fairly insulting and negative against New Zealanders. Paddy O'Brien differed massively with All Blacks management about what kind of effort wayne barnes put in. No bias.

This game in the weekend just gone must have over-stepped the mark in terms of inadaquate refereeing and repeated mistakes in a single area of the game. The All Blacks have been being maligned as cheats at the scrum for the last 2-3 years now and it's simply not true. I can't blame an international referees administrator for stepping in to clarify a misconception and poor job by a ref.

Scream bias all you want, but this needed seeing to.

 

[fcukernaut]

I don't really approve of the head of the referees union going out and throwing a prominent referee under the bus on principle. However, it is also important that the calls on the field are correct and that the referees are as accountable as the players are. On another note, despite the fact that Hansen has been deemed right he should still be disciplined by the iRB for his comments. It is bad for the image of the game to disparage the referee as a coach it is unacceptable. Discipline should come from the top and only from the top, if a coach or team has a grievance they should file it for proper investigation.

 

[ChiefsFan]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fcukernaut @ Nov 18 2009, 04:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I don't really approve of the head of the referees union going out and throwing a prominent referee under the bus on principle. However, it is also important that the calls on the field are correct and that the referees are as accountable as the players are. On another note, despite the fact that Hansen has been deemed right he should still be disciplined by the iRB for his comments. It is bad for the image of the game to disparage the referee as a coach it is unacceptable. Discipline should come from the top and only from the top, if a coach or team has a grievance they should file it for proper investigation.[/b]

I don't know what Hansen said, but if he simply stated that Dickenson was wrong there's nothing wrong with that, because he was.

If he called him a tool, or said he was biased, I can see a problem there.

 

[Nickdnz]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fcukernaut @ Nov 18 2009, 04:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I don't really approve of the head of the referees union going out and throwing a prominent referee under the bus on principle. However, it is also important that the calls on the field are correct and that the referees are as accountable as the players are. On another note, despite the fact that Hansen has been deemed right he should still be disciplined by the iRB for his comments. It is bad for the image of the game to disparage the referee as a coach it is unacceptable. Discipline should come from the top and only from the top, if a coach or team has a grievance they should file it for proper investigation.[/b]

I can recall both Peter de Villiers claiming that referees don't do their job and don't want SA to win, as I can say that Gatlanbd also made comments about poor refereeing, so I can't see why Hanson should be punished at all.

O'Brien was right to announce publically the issue of the scrum as otherwise it could have a negative impact on Crockett and Tialata's career. To be honest Dickenson I've never rated as a decent referee.

 

[C A Iversen]

The whole "referees must not be criticised" thing is fine for local club level and so forth up to professional level, as a lot of those are hard working unpaid volunteers, but this "no criticism for refs, but throw the kitchen sink at players" mentality must go. These guys are responsible for the consistancy of our international game and are paid well to do it. As long as the comments aren't personal and are related specifically to a problem area which was a repeated issue, then I believe the comments are valid.

The situation was a farce in the weekend, with a referee leaving everyone scratching their heads over and over wondering what exactly they were looking at. Is that the kind of thing that must be accepted or even promoted?

Refs have largely been unaccountable since the professional era and thats when their job has started to deserve a little more scrutiny. I'm not all for refs being hassled by fans, but legitimate concerns from coaching staff who are 100% right shouldn't have to be swept under the carpet.

Just so I'm clear though, referees largely do a good job under a lot of pressure and often deserve respect and praise, but like anyone they shouldn't be exempt from scrutiny.

 

[smartcooky]

There are several issues I would like to deal with here.

Coaches criticising referees at the elite level

I am in favour of it, but with limits and consequences...

► If they get it right, and their comments are vindicated (as is the case here) nothing happens to them.

► If they get it wrong, they cop a very big fine, and are suspended from attending matches. The amount of the fine and/or the period of the ban to be commensurate with the level of criticism.

This adds en element of risk. If you are a coach, and you are going to publicly criticise a referee, you had better be 100% sure of the ground you are standing on.


Paddy O'Brien publicly criticising an Elite referee

Again, I am all for it when it is justified. At the elite level, referees are far too insular. They are protected from criticism, and even though they are assessed, they don't appear to the rugby public to be accountable for poor performances unless they have a real shocker, e.g. Matt Goodard; Hurricanes v Bulls this year.

Like the players, the elite panel referees are paid very well. They are supposed to be professionals. The players have to front the media when they have a poor performance, and I see no reason why referees should not also.


The actual match and the scrum problems

I know what I saw on Sunday morning (NZ time), and anyone with an ounce of rugby nous, especially those who have been practitioners of the dark arts, will also know. We saw an Italian prop who was clearly boring in, dropping his bind and pulling the scrum down.

We also saw a referee who had utterly no idea what was going on. You could see it in his facial expressions; the usual jovial smirk was gone, replaced by the vacant look of someone who was completely out of his depth. Dickinson forgot one of the cardinal rules of refereeing.... "If you don't know, don't guess!!!"

But guess he did, and incorrectly most of the time; not just in the last 10 minutes, but right from the first scrum. It had a serious impact on the game, not to mention what it did to the confidence of a young prop in the first matches of his test career, who KNEW he wasn't doing anything wrong or illegal. When the All Black forwards came off the park at San Siro at the end, they were very, very angry, and most of them refused to shake hands with Dickinson, and refused to even talk to him after the match. As far as I know, that has never happened before

In a wider sense, here was a golden opportunity to showcase the game in front of 80,000 Italian (mostly football) supporters, but the referee turned it into "The Stuart Dickinson Show", a complete farce of a match, and this has done some severe damage to the public image of the Game.

 

[shazbooger]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (C A Iversen @ Nov 18 2009, 01:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Pathetic groundless accusation. Fairly insulting and negative against New Zealanders.[/b]

FFS, you have to be the biggest drama queen I have seen in action in a long time. Me thinks the internets are not for you.

 

[stormer2010]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nickdnz @ Nov 18 2009, 07:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fcukernaut @ Nov 18 2009, 04:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't really approve of the head of the referees union going out and throwing a prominent referee under the bus on principle. However, it is also important that the calls on the field are correct and that the referees are as accountable as the players are. On another note, despite the fact that Hansen has been deemed right he should still be disciplined by the iRB for his comments. It is bad for the image of the game to disparage the referee as a coach it is unacceptable. Discipline should come from the top and only from the top, if a coach or team has a grievance they should file it for proper investigation.[/b]

I can recall both Peter de Villiers claiming that referees don't do their job and don't want SA to win, as I can say that Gatlanbd also made comments about poor refereeing, so I can't see why Hanson should be punished at all.

O'Brien was right to announce publically the issue of the scrum as otherwise it could have a negative impact on Crockett and Tialata's career. To be honest Dickenson I've never rated as a decent referee.
[/b][/quote]


Can't see the problem with Hansen. But why does O'Brien go out of his way to put Dickenson down after he penalised the ABs a bit unfairly while SA are still waiting for a simple clarification on interpretations after a written request months ago? Not that I like Dickenson or think he is a good ref but I have seen much worse go without comment week in and week out and if there is a team in world rugby who get the better from refs in generl it is the Blacks (McCaw in particular). Probably becaue O'Brien is a Kiwi, well I guess its difficult to treat everyone by the same yardstick.

 

[Nickdnz]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (stormer2010 @ Nov 19 2009, 01:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nickdnz @ Nov 18 2009, 07:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fcukernaut @ Nov 18 2009, 04:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't really approve of the head of the referees union going out and throwing a prominent referee under the bus on principle. However, it is also important that the calls on the field are correct and that the referees are as accountable as the players are. On another note, despite the fact that Hansen has been deemed right he should still be disciplined by the iRB for his comments. It is bad for the image of the game to disparage the referee as a coach it is unacceptable. Discipline should come from the top and only from the top, if a coach or team has a grievance they should file it for proper investigation.[/b]

I can recall both Peter de Villiers claiming that referees don't do their job and don't want SA to win, as I can say that Gatlanbd also made comments about poor refereeing, so I can't see why Hanson should be punished at all.

O'Brien was right to announce publically the issue of the scrum as otherwise it could have a negative impact on Crockett and Tialata's career. To be honest Dickenson I've never rated as a decent referee.
[/b][/quote]


Can't see the problem with Hansen. But why does O'Brien go out of his way to put Dickenson down after he penalised the ABs a bit unfairly while SA are still waiting for a simple clarification on interpretations after a written request months ago? Not that I like Dickenson or think he is a good ref but I have seen much worse go without comment week in and week out and if there is a team in world rugby who get the better from refs in generl it is the Blacks (McCaw in particular). Probably becaue O'Brien is a Kiwi, well I guess its difficult to treat everyone by the same yardstick.
[/b][/quote]
Comments like the AB's get it easy from refs are pointless and idiotic. If they are penalised less it is because referees either don't notice infringements, or the more likely of the two, the All Blacks aren't cheating, end of. To claim the best team in the world (they are now), get the rub of the green consistently with referees seems like a poor excuse for other teams failures, end of.
I have read several criticisms of O'Brien in the past, and most of them have been during 6 nations fixtures, the fact that he publically comments once on an AB game, in which his comments are justified, and he was pressured by Henry for clarifications to what the props are doing wrong, is now an indication of how he favourites the All Blacks?
I agree with smartcooky's conditions towards coach criticising referees, as it seems like a fair way to control some of the stupid accusations that some coaches throw around, and it also offers an opportunity to fairly criticise referees poor performances and make him accountable.

 

[danger]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (stormer2010 @ Nov 19 2009, 01:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nickdnz @ Nov 18 2009, 07:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fcukernaut @ Nov 18 2009, 04:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't really approve of the head of the referees union going out and throwing a prominent referee under the bus on principle. However, it is also important that the calls on the field are correct and that the referees are as accountable as the players are. On another note, despite the fact that Hansen has been deemed right he should still be disciplined by the iRB for his comments. It is bad for the image of the game to disparage the referee as a coach it is unacceptable. Discipline should come from the top and only from the top, if a coach or team has a grievance they should file it for proper investigation.[/b]

I can recall both Peter de Villiers claiming that referees don't do their job and don't want SA to win, as I can say that Gatlanbd also made comments about poor refereeing, so I can't see why Hanson should be punished at all.

O'Brien was right to announce publically the issue of the scrum as otherwise it could have a negative impact on Crockett and Tialata's career. To be honest Dickenson I've never rated as a decent referee.
[/b][/quote]


Can't see the problem with Hansen. But why does O'Brien go out of his way to put Dickenson down after he penalised the ABs a bit unfairly while SA are still waiting for a simple clarification on interpretations after a written request months ago? Not that I like Dickenson or think he is a good ref but I have seen much worse go without comment week in and week out and if there is a team in world rugby who get the better from refs in generl it is the Blacks (McCaw in particular). Probably becaue O'Brien is a Kiwi, well I guess its difficult to treat everyone by the same yardstick.
[/b][/quote]


I.. cant quite tell if you are serious..

 

[Bernard]

All of that makes me laugh ! you all have no guess what is to be french in this Anglo-saxon ocean of rugby ...look at heineken cup where at least 2 matches have been stolen last year from a french team by an english referee ...Look at the England-France of the last 6N where the first half has been litteraly stolen from France by a shitty referee who gave all penaltys against France in the first 30 minutes , nothing better to kill the motivation of a team (do not get me wrong , we would have lost anyway but the referee was a shame ...)..look at the nineties where French used to have on a regular basis some red card (not that there was not some french forward butchers but it was defenitly too much , we were only ones to receive red cards ) ...

Finally we have just learned to eat our anger in silence ...it is better these last years , we are a bit more respected but bad old habits keeps being alive sometimes...I won't talk about sort of "racism" but i felt during long years that it was about that ....The fact that during long years we were **** in english language did not help us at all ...Now every french players have a tleast a minimum understanding of english....


So the day a guy like paddy O'brien will fight against a referee decision for France , rooster will have teeth...But for AB , no problem , he can destroy his workmate....


More largely , southern teams are quite protected i think by referees as they let them played illegally a lot of times on rucks for example..Mac Caw is well known in France to have some illegal tactics to slow down balls on rucks and other sweet things like that (but referees don't seem to care ...) ...and so when a european referee begins to judge them on an european way , that is a scandal...but when a SH referee let AB and others played illegaly on rucks (from an european POV ) nobody says anything....

Overall i think there is a problem with the arbitration of matches ...Some stuff are accepted in SH and not in NH (and there is even some little differences between the TOP14 and the english premiership in Europe..) ...So it is creating a lot of frustrations from everybody . I think that we should find another way to work about that , to have some real rules in common about some part of the game , to use maybe more videos , maybe to have some commisions that are judging a referee for a dedicated match...But it will go against the rugby referee nature who is considered as the master of the game ....

 

[shazbooger]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (stormer2010 @ Nov 18 2009, 12:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

if there is a team in world rugby who get the better from refs in generl it is the Blacks (McCaw in particular). Probably becaue O'Brien is a Kiwi, well I guess its difficult to treat everyone by the same yardstick.[/b]

I think you've just insulted all of New Zealand there.