Overhype of "world's best" Dan Cole

[psychic duck]

Cole is.
But then that's a discussion for a different thread, really.

Dominating some of the weaker scrummaging sides in the Premiership like Worcester and Sale doesn't mean he is the best in the world, it means he is one of the best in the Premiership and in England, not the world.

To be the best in the world, he needs to dominate in the big games like 6 Nations, Premiership knockout rounds, and big Heineken Cup matches where he will face hard opposition. So far, other than the Ireland match in the 6 Nations that was down Tom Court at tighthead and Ross injury situation, I have yet to see Cole take apart and get on top of any top scrummagers in the big games.

Whilst others such as Adam Jones (France 2008, Lions 2009, Leicester 2010, Samoa 2011 RWC, England 2012) has got on top of some very decent scrummagers and done so in the big games. When has Cole got on top of scrums of that calibre?

There are others as well. Cencus Johnston has delivered in Heineken Cup finals against internationals like Fabien Barcella. Nicolas Mas has had some great days for France in internationals.

As for in the loose, he does have a decent work rate at tackles which is better than most in his position, but with ball in hand he is overrated imo, I don't see him along the likes of Johnston or Castrogiovanni in terms of ball carrying ability.

So, tackling is probably the only aspect that I reckon he is amongst the world's best tightheads. But he's not there yet overall to be considered "the world's best" which English hype has proclaimed him as.

However saying that, Cole is aged 25 and I do think he may well become one of the best tightheads in the world, props normally improve scrummaging wise as they get older so there is reason to believe than by 2015 World Cup and the few years after Cole may be at his peak. I think Cole is a very good prop, but world's best in an exaggeration for the moment.

But the idea that he is the world's best now is ridiculous, as it is within 12 months that Wales dominated him in the scrum. Also he missed a big opportunity to get ahead of Adam Jones when he faced them last week, the Ospreys had Bevington who hasn't been anywhere near the force Paul James was in the scrum as well as the relatively lightweight James King in the second row yet the scrums pretty much cancelled out in the end.

If Cole wasn't English nobody would claim him to be the best in the world. It reminds of when the English media claimed Sheridan the best in the world after dominating the Australians in 2005 and 2007, ignoring the other quality props around the world. As it turned out Gethin Jenkins was the one who went on two Lions tours both as first choice loosehead.

Sorry duck but can you stop citing one example of something and thinking that its evidence. In the same way that posting a 5 second gif doesn't prove anything, one game in which cole's loosehead partner (marler) struggled against the aussie tighthead doesn't undo all the good work and frequent dominance that Cole has in the scrum. And thats forgetting his loose work.

The same prop who was part of scrum that got the better of Cole and Leicester in the Premiership final ...

<iframe width="450" height="253" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Ghd0Z9EqHx4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>

Oh and ...

<iframe width="450" height="253" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/dfZnozyd6YE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>

 

[Tony Manx]

I am not sure he is either but you missed out his very good work at breakdowns from his qualities......

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Haha,
10/10, thread of the year.

I think if his name was Colekashvili or Cole-Jones we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Sent from my HTC Incredible S using Tapatalk 2

 

[dullonien]

Sorry Duck, but he is one of the best in the world. I don't think there is a clear 'best tighthead in the world', instead there are a number that are there or thereabouts.

Dan Cole may not be the best scrummaging tighthead in the world (I'd say that is Adam Jones), but he's still extremely strong in this area. He may not be the best carrying tighthead, but he's none too shabby. He is the best tighthead when it comes to the breakdown though. Add these together and you end up with a damn fine all rounded tighthead prop. At the age of just 25, that is quite incredible.

I see him in a similar vein to Gethin Jenkins in his peak, not the strongest scrummaging prop in the world, but more than makes up for it in the loose.

So best in the world, debatable. One of the best, certainly.

 

[Aristodemus]

I think Cole is a great player, if I were to pick a world XV I would pick him (the only English player I would). I am English so take it as you will, but scrummaging isn't the be all and end all.

 

[Big Ewis]

I dunno about overrated, but Dan Cole on my team...uhm yes please !
And Sheridan was (still is) excellent too. Tremendous strength.

But yeh, others can be mentioned but surely Cole is a fantastic scrummager.
England was pretty flat in the scrums against Australia last November though I must admit, though the latter certainly has had problems with the scrum !...

 

[big ginger 8]

Definitely up there wouldn't call him clearly the worlds best.

Somewhat related Duck you said Healy isn't the worlds best who in your opinion is as a matter of interest is?

 

[smb64]

"Dan Cole is very close to being the best tighthead in the world and I think he can go on to become that. I really rate him.
"What makes him such a great player is that as well as being a great scrummager, he is one of the best ball stealers I have seen. He really gets around." - Is what Heyneke Meyer said about him.

I don't think apart from a few over enthusiastic people, that many are calling Cole THE best in the world. Its his potential and what hes shown, that's why he is hyped because people know what he can do.

He is undoubtedly one of the best though - along with Adam Jones.

 

[Peat]

So I first I was like 'omgwtf' and then I was all 'luuuuuulllllz'

Since I can safely leave the defence of his reputation to the various Irish, Welsh and French here - clearly only doing it because they love the English - so I'm just going to kick back and have a giggle.

Also, I like how PD is quick to mention Ross' injury, but completely forgets Marler doing a ligament against Australia, and criticises Cole for not putting away a scrum containing King at lock, while making no mention of Ollie Kohn in that Quins scrum in the final.

 

[Big Ewis]

lol Peat, just being objective (as everybody always should...^_^). Dan Cole could be Pakistani for all I care I'd have written the same comment here.

He (Cole) may perhaps be a little bit overrated in that we'll see him do great and capture that impression and keep only that, when PD for e.g. means to show there are really other instances when he may seem a bit less strong as we'd have assessed based on those 3 or 4 good examples we've seen before.

It's especially hard to rate scrummagers obviously. All we have is *how well a scrum does against another*, and if possible, that scrummager being substituted for another one and, by chance, seeing a difference in the scrum. So no absolute unit of measure.
In the NBA for e.g., there are all kinds of stats for any position...and the intangibles are clear to analyze - as contrast.

 

[UlsterRugby2012]

I think Dan Cole and Adam Jones are on par for the Lions 3 shirt. Adam Jones will be 32 by the time of the Lions tour, Dan Cole is only 25 and will probably be on the next tour.

This might be a shock to some few Welsh fans - but we don't all think Wales is the best team in the world. It's a matter of opinion. For example, in my opinion, Healy > Jenkins, Hartley > Hibbard, Ferris > Lydiate, Kearney > Halfpenny, Cole > Jones.
Emphasis on opinion.
You can't ridicule someone for thinking he's the best and then turn around and say 'oh but Adam Jones is the best'.

You're bringing up previous achievements of Jones, but guess what, players get old. I could say O'Driscoll is so much better than Davies, just look at his career. But I can't.

 

[McTallshort]

isnt Jenkins second choice LH at Toulon behind Sheriden?

Cole is an excellent Prop none better at the breakdown and solid enough in scrum, not the best in the world but not sure many are much better.

 

[Draggs]

Why does every thread turn into a Wales hate?
If it is just an opinion why does everybody chuck a wobbly?

 

[SelimNiai]

<img style="-webkit-user-select: none" src="http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/33677749.jpg">

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Why does every thread turn into a Wales hate?

Because otherwise every thread turns in to a Welsh love in thread

I don't think Hartley is better than Hibbard at all.
In fact I'm starting to thing Youngs is a better choice for England 2, and I flipping hate Youngs.

 

[Draggs]

Because otherwise every thread turns in to a Welsh love in thread

I don't think Hartley is better than Hibbard at all.
In fact I'm starting to thing Youngs is a better choice for England 2, and I flipping hate Youngs.

Not from most Welsh fans here. Every time a squad is announced I have to boot the Irish out of the Welsh thread, guaranteed.

 

[dullonien]

This might be a shock to some few Welsh fans - but we don't all think Wales is the best team in the world. It's a matter of opinion. For example, in my opinion, Healy > Jenkins, Hartley > Hibbard, Ferris > Lydiate, Kearney > Halfpenny, Cole > Jones.

Only the most one eyed Welsh fan would claim all those Welsh players are first choice for the Lions.

Healy is easily ahead of Jenkins at the moment, because Jenkins' form has dropped to a level it has never done so in the past. Most Welsh fans I know have Paul James ahead of Jenkins as well, and given the lack of game time Jenkins is getting at Toulon, I don't see that changing before the Lions tour.

Hibbard hasn't cemented himself as Wales' first choice hooker yet, mainly due to unfortunate injuries. Not a fan of Heartley at all though, he's just as likely to cost us a test due to his thuggish nature as he is to have a good tour. Best is still my no.1, but even his form has dipped a little.

Both Ferris and Lydiate are injured at the moment. No guarantee how either will play after returning. I see no problem for Welsh fans to consider Lydiate ahead of Ferris though after having an absolutely barnstorming 2011-12, including being named 6 nations player of the tournament despite missing the first game. Both are excellent players, and I'd be happy with either, yet neither are guaranteed a place on the plane yet.

Halfpenny has been exceptional in everything he does for Wales in pretty much every single one of his 39 caps. Wales best player last season by quite some distance (Lydiate missed the second-half). He may be still developing his attacking game from fullback, but every other aspect of his play is very good. Kearney and Foden, as well as a few others are up there with him.

As for the Jones v Cole situation, it depends on what the management want to do. If they want to apply maximum pressure on Aus in the scrums, expect Jones to start. If they see Cole as someone that can help out the back-row to counter Pocock etc. at the breakdown maybe Cole will be selected. It is worth remembering that although Jones doesn't turn ball over, his job at the breakdown is to clear out, and he does this very effectively. Adam Jones is all about tight play, he excels in the scrums, at fringe defence and at clearing out rucks. It may not be as exciting as seeing Cole turn over ball, but it can be just as important, especially if you have a genuine 7 to do the turn-over work.

 

[big ginger 8]

Not from most Welsh fans here. Every time a squad is announced I have to boot the Irish out of the Welsh thread, guaranteed.

Because you try to say stuff to try and annoy the Irish?

 

[Draggs]

Because you try to say stuff to try and annoy the Irish?

Mmm, not in the Welsh squad threads. Take last week, not sure what happened, but overnight it turned into Kearney v Foden.

 

[big ginger 8]

Mmm, not in the Welsh squad threads. Take last week, not sure what happened, but overnight it turned into Kearney v Foden.

I know yeah was just messing in fairness I think the Irish were the last to the party that time.