O'Sullivan in queue for Edinburgh job

munstermuffin · Mar 30, 2011

Snoop I'm not saying he was best coach ever or anything and agree he blew a few ***les especially in our first year in Croker but I do think he is deserving of the Edinburgh job.

Feicarsinn · Mar 30, 2011

snoopy snoopy dog dog said:
He failed to get the best out of the Ireland teams he coached. Multiple championships were blown but it's okay because we picked up the devalued currency that is the triple crown a few times. I don't rate O'Sullivan.

+1. A lot of people seem to have forgotten that with one of the most talented Irish sides ever he managed to win nothing of any consequence in what, five years?

TRF_Cymro · Mar 30, 2011

Still would be a good signing for Edinburugh.

munstermuffin · Mar 30, 2011

That my point like I'm not saying he is a top class man and I never was for him taking over from Gatland. But in terms of Edinburgh I think it's a good move for them

Logorrhea · Mar 30, 2011

Feicarsinn said:
+1. A lot of people seem to have forgotten that with one of the most talented Irish sides ever he managed to win nothing of any consequence in what, five years?

Still is, if not more so and we just lost to Wales and France while nearly losing to Italy and Scotland.

O'Sullivan is the most successful coach in the history of Irish international rugby. His record speaks for itself.

Of course he ****** up the WC in 2007, he admits the same himself. Doesnt mean you should disregard everything that was achieved before.

profitius · Mar 30, 2011

Technically hes very good but hes also an unlucky coach. Some people take the view that you make your own luck. The last gasp try by France in the first Croke Park match cost Ireland a grand slam that year. Remember they recorded a record win against England in that seasons 6N. In another tournament they lost out on points scored after France scored a late try against Scotland. The try was dubious and I seem to remember the ref asked was there any reason he could not award the try. The video ref couldn't see it being grounded so he had to give it. So that interpretation alone potentially cost Ireland a championship but as I always say, you make your own luck.

The world cup 07 himself and the trainers got the fitness preparation spectacularly wrong. They were trying to do something different but the players arrived unfit and nearly lost to Georgia. The Ireland A team beat Georgia by something like 40 - 3 the year before in the Churchill cup.

snoopy snoopy dog dog · Mar 30, 2011

O'Sullivan thought none of Jamie Heaslip, Tommy Bowe, Rob Kearney and Luke Fitzgerald were good enough to play in the 2007 World Cup. Less than two years later they were starting test matches for the Lions. He took Brian f'n Carney to that World Cup. Ireland played awful rugby during his reign but some decent results masked the fact- as long as we were winning, who cared? He's neither an imaginative nor a good coach.

ORothlain · Mar 30, 2011

It will suck to lose him here in the US. We have been lucky to have had a really great coaching set up with O'Sullivan coaching and Nigel Melville running the organization.

munstermuffin · Mar 30, 2011

Snoop been honest I can agree what your saying is true but we are in a similar scenario now aren't we

Logorrhea · Mar 30, 2011

snoopy snoopy dog dog said:
O'Sullivan thought none of Jamie Heaslip, Tommy Bowe, Rob Kearney and Luke Fitzgerald were good enough to play in the 2007 World Cup. Neither did many others at the time. Its not as if there was a campaign to include them. Less than two years later they were starting test matches for the Lions. Two years is a long time in rugby. He took Brian f'n Carney to that World Cup. He took a lot of players to the world cup. Ireland played awful rugby during his reign Not true, he was the backs coach credited with releasing the Irish backline after years of "up-and-at-em", after that he played winning rugby and especially for the last two years of his reign, the game itself because ugly kickyball but some decent results masked the fact- as long as we were winning, who cared? South Africa won the tournament playing "hoofitup". England also got to the final playing "scrumemtodeath", I remember the respective fans on this forum wetting themselves with enthusiasm. I also remember the Welsh playing pretty rugby against Fiji, which didnt work out so well. No one cares when you are winning, until AFTER the fact. He's neither an imaginative nor a good coach. In your opinion

Far to selective in your recollections

profitius · Mar 30, 2011

snoopy snoopy dog dog said:
O'Sullivan thought none of Jamie Heaslip, Tommy Bowe, Rob Kearney and Luke Fitzgerald were good enough to play in the 2007 World Cup. Less than two years later they were starting test matches for the Lions. He took Brian f'n Carney to that World Cup. Ireland played awful rugby during his reign but some decent results masked the fact- as long as we were winning, who cared? He's neither an imaginative nor a good coach.

He has made mistakes but don't let that cloud your judgment. Remember that Kearney is young even now, Bowe wasn't great for Ulster hes transformed since he went to the Ospreys, Fitzgerald was young and Heaslip was too. Heaslip was just breaking into the Leinster team. Those players proved nothing and EOS went for proven players. He has big blind spots which probably ment Ireland lost out on a few championship wins but he is still a good coach.

snoopy snoopy dog dog · Mar 30, 2011

profitius said:
He has made mistakes but don't let that cloud your judgment. Remember that Kearney is young even now, Bowe wasn't great for Ulster hes transformed since he went to the Ospreys, Fitzgerald was young and Heaslip was too. Heaslip was just breaking into the Leinster team. Those players proved nothing and EOS went for proven players. He has big blind spots which probably ment Ireland lost out on a few championship wins but he is still a good coach.

The previous season, Kearney was scoring tries and starting in the Heineken Cup. Six months later he was starting and scoring tries in the 6 Nations. Gavin Duffy was taken to the World Cup ahead of him. Six months previous to being selected in the World Cup, Duffy was released by Harlequins because he couldn't get into the team and Connacht picked him up. That was a bad call by O'Sullivan. Age wasn't a barrier to Kearney being selected.

I agree that Fitzgerald shouldn't have gone to the World Cup but Bowe definitely should have. He was a Heineken Cup regular for Ulster with a decent try scoring record. Brian Carney was a 31 year old rugby league player who'd played 4 or 5 games in union. It was a dreadful decision to bring him to France.

Heaslip was 23 or 24 and had been capped by Ireland a year previously. He had played two full seasons in the Heineken Cup, rarely missed a game for Leinster and was regularly one of the teams standout players. Ireland went into that World Cup with one recognised number 8 (Leamy) and a clatter of 6s. Not taking Heaslip was another dreadful decision.

@Logorrhea
Heaslip and Bowe were widely thought to have been unlucky to miss out. Kearney and Fitzgerald less so but they were definitely in the running. Two years is a long time. Those players were performing well before the World Cup. He took a lot of players to the World Cup? Every team took 30! He took a lot of players who should never have gone. Ireland played some sexy rugby under Gatland and in O'Sullivan's first campaign. After that he got gradually more risk averse playing kick everything and trust your defence rugby. Attack out wide off first phase only. It was dire stuff. South Africa and England played to their strengths and got to a World Cup final. Argentina played to their strengths and deservedly made the semi final. Ireland didn't put the ball in the hands of their talented backs enough and were knocked out. Of course it's my opinion, just as you've another opinion. I respectfully disagree (but maintain that you're wrong!).

It's one thing making mistakes as a coach. It's quite another burying your head in the sand and not rectifing those errors. O'Sullivan continued to pick the same underperforming players from the 2007 World Cup in the following 6 Nations. He blamed lack of games on the poor world cup but failed to realise that semi finalists Argentina played even fewer warm ups. When asked about the next generation of Irish players, he said it was of no concern to him. He was far too into the here and now and self preservation. I think O'Sullivan is a spoofer.

Logorrhea · Mar 30, 2011

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The rest, though it's too hard to read, seems to be based on the team's performance during the 2007 WC and beyond. He was there for 5 or 6 years before that (not including his time as backs coach under Gatland) and those were seasons of unprecedented success for the nation. You just can't pretend those didn't happen because it suits your stance.

snoopy snoopy dog dog · Mar 30, 2011

Two simple questions for you Logorrhea that only require one word answers:

1. You say Ireland had 5 or 6 years of unprecedented success. How many championships did Ireland win under O'Sullivan in those years?

2. Do you believe it was wise selecting four blindside flankers (Ferris, Easterby, Leamy, Quinlan) and just one number 8 (Leamy who was a converted 6)?

Heaslip was the best number 8 in Ireland in 2007, no question. Leamy was unfit during the tournament yet Ireland had no choice but to persevere with him due to there being no backup. That's a major failure of selection.

munstermuffin · Mar 30, 2011

Snoop I'd agree with you but add Quinny can play 8 too if needed but realistically he brought 3 because Quinny just did waterboy and no more was required off him.

Logorrhea · Mar 30, 2011

snoopy snoopy dog dog said:
Two simple questions for you Logorrhea that only require one word answers

Sorry dont do leading questions, if you want to make a point make one.

Oh and shame on you for relying on a stat like that. How many championships have we ever one ffs. Maybe I should have said "unprecedented success relative to the 50 or so barren years before hand". ****** stupid use of statistics.

The EOS arguement has been done a million times. I was happy to see EOS leave, I thought he stayed a year too long and I was rightly ****** with what he did to the 2007 squad, however I appreciated what he and the team did in the preceeding years. Having attended frequent hammerings on a regular basis I enjoyed watching us beat Australia, England, and South Africa fairly frequently. I enjoyed actually challenging for ***les (the bounce of a ball once and a dodgy try another time dont forget) and in those days the triple crown meant something.

Maybe it was before your time but those were good days.

munstermuffin · Mar 30, 2011

Lads back on subject I think Eddie would be a great selection for Edinburgh and yes he has faults but most coaches do but he is experienced and could do a fine job

snoopy snoopy dog dog · Mar 30, 2011

Logorrhea said:
Sorry dont do leading questions, if you want to make a point make one.

Oh and shame on you for relying on a stat like that. How many championships have we ever one ffs. Maybe I should have said "unprecedented success relative to the 50 or so barren years before hand". ****** stupid use of statistics.

The EOS arguement has been done a million times. I was happy to see EOS leave, I thought he stayed a year too long and I was rightly ****** with what he did to the 2007 squad, however I appreciated what he and the team did in the preceeding years. Having attended frequent hammerings on a regular basis I enjoyed watching us beat Australia, England, and South Africa fairly frequently. I enjoyed actually challenging for ***les (the bounce of a ball once and a dodgy try another time dont forget) and in those days the triple crown meant something.

Maybe it was before your time but those were good days.

Come here and I'll give you a hug. Shame on me for looking at meaningless stats like ***le wins.

Yes the win against England 2004 was before my time- actually scratch that, I was at that game. I was also at the wins against Australia in 2002 and 2006 and the win against SA in 2004. I'm fully aware of how bad Ireland were in the 90s having been to many games as a school boy. I'm also fully aware that Ireland had crap players then. O'Sullivan had good players and didn't get them playing as well as they could.

TRF_Cymro · Mar 30, 2011

Urgh ... another thread thats turned Irish :lol:

Charles · Mar 30, 2011

TRF_Cymro said:
Urgh ... another thread thats turned Irish :lol:

You can thank me :lol:

O'Sullivan in queue for Edinburgh job

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