NRFL Combine in United States Ready to Roll on April 5-6th

[Groundhog]

I read all of James Walker's tweets and I'm not sure what to think, because on the one hand it seems like the Combine guys are saying he has it all wrong and are simply begging him to stop giving them such bad press without the proper facts, and on the other, Walker says that one of his guys read the contract over the phone and it's very dodgy.
I won't pass any judgements yet

 

[Grant A Cole]

Dodgy only if you don't know the back stories

I won't pass any judgements yet

Many will think this dodgy because it is not the amateur model of promoting rugby. It is best not to pass judgment until/unless one knows more about the situation than meets the eye. Methinks many will be surprised at the outcome of this endeavor.

The RugbyLaw guys are serious businessmen, not the scambots we are used to seeing in this genre of our rugby world.

Good thread gents, please keep up the banter...

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Many will think this dodgy because it is not the amateur model of promoting rugby. It is best not to pass judgment until/unless one knows more about the situation than meets the eye. Methinks many will be surprised at the outcome of this endeavor.

The RugbyLaw guys are serious businessmen, not the scambots we are used to seeing in this genre of our rugby world.

Good thread gents, please keep up the banter...

Grant, have you heard any feedback on how the athletes, coaches and organizers perceived the combine? The podcast you participated in for A Rugby Life prior to the combine is the most revealing information so far about the venture.

It sounds as though the guys behind the NRFL are going to scour the globe to pick up talent for their rosters. From what I recall, they have a few international (or ex-international) front rows lined up for the Independence Cup and are trawling South Africa in particular for players.

Again, it's hard to judge exactly how credible this is until more plans are revealed with respect to the Independence Cup and how successful the combine was. One thing is for sure, this venture has gotten an awful lot further than previous plans (such as Grand Prix Rugby and plans for the NA4 to be a pro league contested by Canadian and US teams). The involvement of Eddie O'Sullivan and pro teams from Europe means it deserves attention.

 

[ratsapprentice]

The reason it seems dodgy is because of their outward opposition to unions.

If they are not affiliated with a union then I do not see how they are going to be sanctioned by the IRB - which basically prohibits them from playing against any professional side.
Unless they want to set up their own rugby code - in which case they again, cannot interface with the IRB affiliated organisations.

I applaud them for taking tangible steps toward setting up a professional system for US players to aspire to - but I think they would be better off trying to weave their model in with Rugby's existing infrastructure.
They are trying to build a league into a sport whose elite level is national teams - which requires Unions for legitimacy.

Frankly I think they are also being naive about what sort of level their "independence cup" team will be able to reach - even with lifelong foreign players.

 

[Grant A Cole]

Snoop, Follow Rugby America for the best post-combine interviews. Ted has interviewed several players thus far and is finishing an article to drop soon on the subject of how it was perceived.

Yes, the NRFL plans to pull in elite-athletes from where-ever they may come. In the USA, a depth of talent just happens to be in the gridiron athletes that did not stay in the NCAA/NFL system for any number of reasons. I prefer basketball athletes over gridiron, but others have different views. Their money, their ballgame.

Success? I think we will begin to hear about the outcome of the combine soon enough (tough to put a timeline on it due to factors that are not easily controlled or predicted). Regardless of the outcome, I think that whether it was a success or not will be hotly debated up until a match is played. Even the RugbyLaw partners think that way - encouraged, but cautious would be an apt description of them.

I used to think that rugby's existing infrastructure, especially the one in the USA, was capable of building and supporting a high-quality, professional league. I've watched as The Super League and Major League rugby rose and fell, respectively. CA4 gave it a try that couldn't be converted. Moore and his APRC talked a lot, but had not money or plan to back the goal. The NAPR had a sanctioning agreement between USAR & RC and looked to be the most viable option. Indeed, it had a LOT of money behind it. But, it proposed to lose a lot of money in the first decade and it was built directly upon the MLS model. The IRB wouldn't even give it a letter of credit to help it over the hump and it was directly aligned with the North American unions.

The IRB wants a Rugby World Cup to take place in the USA. For that reason, it will back whatever entity is best positioned to make that happen. Right now, that means a rugby organization must be negotiating with major stadiums (>30K cap) to ensure fields are IRB compliant. USAR does not possess that clout because major stadiums are not interested in talking with recreational and amateur entities. Those do not bring in adequate cash. Major stadiums want to negotiate with a business plan and a viable product. RugbyLaw has one and is developing the "proof of concept" for the other. Also, they are some very patient dudes that are hell bent on not bringing their product to market until/unless it can kick ass. That's the one thing about all of this that encourages me.

Whether their athletes will be ready for a match will obviously be hotly debated on these pages in days to come. Looking forward to participating.

BTW, if you guys want a league concept to decry, Keep your eye on Philly at the end of May. Word is that UWS intends to introduce 7s (or maybe 9s) with unlimited subs (a la Basketball) on a Full-Size playing enclosure with the game to be played in 15 minute quarters (remind anyone of the Arena Rugby concept?).

OOO-Exhilirating! /snark

 

[goodNumber10]

Am I alone in finding premiership clubs scraping around for bargain basement rejects from other sports a little sad?

Why not take these efforts and finances and develop home grown players?

Even with transferrable skills surely it's better to develop people within our own game.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I used to think that rugby's existing infrastructure, especially the one in the USA, was capable of building and supporting a high-quality, professional league.
The IRB wants a Rugby World Cup to take place in the USA. For that reason, it will back whatever entity is best positioned to make that happen. Right now, that means a rugby organization must be negotiating with major stadiums (>30K cap) to ensure fields are IRB compliant. USAR does not possess that clout because major stadiums are not interested in talking with recreational and amateur entities. Those do not bring in adequate cash. Major stadiums want to negotiate with a business plan and a viable product. RugbyLaw has one and is developing the "proof of concept" for the other. Also, they are some very patient dudes that are hell bent on not bringing their product to market until/unless it can kick ass. That's the one thing about all of this that encourages me.

I disagree with the notion that they will back anybody - they will back whoever they decide has the best interests of the international game at heart.

If the NRFL are not governed by a Union or do not become the de facto representatives of the USA national team (which they clearly wont) then they are essentially in direct competition with the USA Eagles.
They will not support a US body if it conflicts with the interests of USA rugby.

USAR doesn't have the clout to negotiate with major stadiums? We'll see... the proposed Eagles/All Blacks game at Soldier Field will tell us a lot about the reality of the situation either way.

At this point in time USAR have a far more viable product (international rugby vs Tier 1 sides) than RugbyLaw does.
I don't think the US currently has the critical mass of high quality players to sustain a professional tournament.

From what I can make out you guys need the USAR to plan for the time when your collegiate teams are playing genuinely high quality rugby and producing a large quantity of players.
At that point they need to be ready* set up a league with a similar franchise structure to the NFL - but with them at the centre... USAR would act just as the NFL does, but with the added responsibility of organising The Eagles.

*They need to planning this in advance - they don't want to have the supply and then be scrambling to put together a product for people to invest in.

 

[Peat]

Am I alone in finding premiership clubs scraping around for bargain basement rejects from other sports a little sad?

Why not take these efforts and finances and develop home grown players?

Even with transferrable skills surely it's better to develop people within our own game.

The first point is that the only effort and finance going into this from Premiership clubs is sending the Scout over to take a gander. That's it. It s a tiny expenditure of resources that in no way affects the recruitment and training of English youngsters.

The second is that Rugby should be the best and most inclusive sport it can be. Telling people that we're not interested in them because they weren't playing it as a 21 year old or something is ridiculous. It's a waste of talent. Tom Court didn't start playing rugby until he was 24. Matt Symons left the pro rugby system to try out being a rower and only came back after injury. Hayden Smith didn't start playing rugby until he was 23. That's most of a talented tight five there and I'm sure the Georgians can throw up some late convert props to go with. Chuck Israel Folau in at the back and we're beginning to be moving towards a full team...

So, hopefully you are alone here.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Yep. Sending scouts over requires very little effort from the clubs.

I had a gander through the photos and there were only three scouts in attendance.

Saracens sent their own guy, and there were two other guys representing the other clubs between them.

 

[Grant A Cole]

Major stadiums are those that are not yet rugby ready, but can be made to be so. That takes money that USAR doesn't have and the IRB isn't coughing up.

USAR will not make a plan for the collegiate game. It cannot make an effective one. If the US ever wants the collegiate game to produce a large quantity of quality rugby players, then USAR must step back and allow something else to develop. Unless Professional Rugby drives the bus, we are another quarter-century from rugby ever populating the athletic departments of more than 50 universities. The culture just does not exist within the university administrations to support it and the money is not readily forth-coming from the respective club alumni to convince the universities that rugby has value, yet.

USAR needs to concentrate on running the national teams and developing coaching and referee curriculum. It has proven that it cannot support elite-level rugby on too many occasions.

Money is tight for rugby at any level stateside. A professional endeavor will be difficult, at best - tremendously implausible, at worst. The odds will not prevent me from supporting any such endeavor that puts its money where it's mouth is as RugbyLaw is doing.

 

[goodNumber10]

The first point is that the only effort and finance going into this from Premiership clubs is sending the Scout over to take a gander. That's it. It s a tiny expenditure of resources that in no way affects the recruitment and training of English youngsters.

The second is that Rugby should be the best and most inclusive sport it can be. Telling people that we're not interested in them because they weren't playing it as a 21 year old or something is ridiculous. It's a waste of talent. Tom Court didn't start playing rugby until he was 24. Matt Symons left the pro rugby system to try out being a rower and only came back after injury. Hayden Smith didn't start playing rugby until he was 23. That's most of a talented tight five there and I'm sure the Georgians can throw up some late convert props to go with. Chuck Israel Folau in at the back and we're beginning to be moving towards a full team...

So, hopefully you are alone here.

Calm down mate, no need to be rude about it it's just a discussion point.

On point one, at this stage but if anyone gets signed they will potentially be spending money on fast track development of talent from outside the game. they aren't going to come over out of their own pocket are they?

On point two, i've not said we should not welcome people from other sports of course we should - but openly going and recruiting from those other sports is very different to what you are suggesting. Your examples are people who have still developed through the traditional rugby systems, all be it rapidly, what they aren't is parachuted players openly recruited from other sports dropped in for a quick fix. (I feel League players like Folau/Williams are somewhat different having originally come from an alternative rugby background).

In fairness if anything comes from it then it would be supplementary to most clubs current development paths, but if you were a youth player at a premiership club and they brought in, say, an american sprinter with no experience and gave him a contract and fast development plan in your position how would you feel? Are our development programs that bad that we need to do this?

I know there are some traditional rugby players in there, but as Rats has pointed out if these guys are so keen to develop american rugby why is their efforts and resources not going into recruiting and integrating these guys into the traditional American rugby set up, offering their financial support there instead of this quick fix program?

I dunno something in all of this just doesn't sit right...

 

[ratsapprentice]

If the US ever wants the collegiate game to produce a large quantity of quality rugby players, then USAR must step back and allow something else to develop. Unless Professional Rugby drives the bus, we are another quarter-century from rugby ever populating the athletic departments of more than 50 universities.

There needs to be a bus to drive before you can drive it.

 

[Grant A Cole]

if you were a youth player at a premiership club and they brought in, say, an american sprinter with no experience and gave him a contract and fast development plan in your position how would you feel?

I know there are some traditional rugby players in there, but as Rats has pointed out if these guys are so keen to develop american rugby why is their efforts and resources not going into recruiting and integrating these guys into the traditional American rugby set up, offering their financial support there instead of this quick fix program?

Bringing in a professional from another sport should either drive those currently playing in the position he is vying for to become better or weed out the wanna-bes. Purists may whinge that this takes away from the all-inclusive spirit of rugby. If this was club rugby, I would agree. I've seen the concept crash and burn in American rugby clubs too many times to count. Professional settings are different animals altogether. In a professional setting, getting better is as much a part of the job as getting pushed to become better is. Lose a step to a younger version and career change.

To answer the second question, they did. Too much of the backstory regarding the NRFL has yet to appear. As it does, I think many will be surprised to hear how many of the gridiron athletes that showed up looking for a serious chance spent hundreds of hours watching instructional video on rugby and then working on passing and body position and how they also hooked up with select clubs (to be named later) to practice and play before attending the combine. All of this was conducted with the assistance, guidance and liaison work of the RugbyLaw team.

Reserve judgment. The whole story has yet to be written about this concept. Judging it now is fun, but it's akin to predicting what your future bride will be like five years from now. You may love it, you may hate it, it may be gone from your life completely by then...

 

[goodNumber10]

Bringing in a professional from another sport should either drive those currently playing in the position he is vying for to become better or weed out the wanna-bes. Purists may whinge that this takes away from the all-inclusive spirit of rugby. If this was club rugby, I would agree. I've seen the concept crash and burn in American rugby clubs too many times to count. Professional settings are different animals altogether. In a professional setting, getting better is as much a part of the job as getting pushed to become better is. Lose a step to a younger version and career change.

Internal development and promotion is as much a part of a professional environment as external competition.

But in most professional environments you balance skill and talent against exposure and experience. If I go for a job it is likely to be my experience and proof of experience that lands me the job over someone who is equally able.

If I'm a youth player and I've spent years honing my skill to suddenly see a sprinter fast tracked to the same level I'm gone.

To answer the second question, they did. Too much of the backstory regarding the NRFL has yet to appear. As it does, I think many will be surprised to hear how many of the gridiron athletes that showed up looking for a serious chance spent hundreds of hours watching instructional video on rugby and then working on passing and body position and how they also hooked up with select clubs (to be named later) to practice and play before attending the combine. All of this was conducted with the assistance, guidance and liaison work of the RugbyLaw team.

Reserve judgment. The whole story has yet to be written about this concept. Judging it now is fun, but it's akin to predicting what your future bride will be like five years from now. You may love it, you may hate it, it may be gone from your life completely by then...

I've heard this a number of times so far, but am still to read anything about this stuff.

Will obviously have to reserve judgement but the lack of info out there doesn't bode well.

 

[Grant A Cole]

You gents will naysay plenty about this, but here are the initial reactions to the NRFL Combine shared by Rugby America's Ted Hardy.

 

[ratsapprentice]

It's not really "naysaying" - there are very real practical issues with the plan that RugbyLaw have stated they intend to follow.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

You gents will naysay plenty about this, but here are the initial reactions to the NRFL Combine shared by Rugby America's Ted Hardy.

Thanks for the link. The report is overwhelmingly positive. This is a very interesting chapter in seeing the sport develop in the US. If nothing else, a lot of athletes have been exposed to rugby.

 

[Groundhog]

Looks from the link that the clubs that came over are at least interested in a few signings.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Piece by Murray Kinsella, one of the best rugby journalists around:
http://thescore.thejournal.ie/nrfl-...ball-1423687-Apr2014/?utm_source=twitter_self

A few notes on it:
1. Many of the European clubs were represented by one agent, Jonathan Stuart of Top Marque Sports.
2. A player has been signed to an English club already, subject to gaining a work permit.
3. Thoughts from it are that it's primarily wingers and outside centres who'll be unearthed with number 8s and blindsides also possibilities.
4. It was roughly a 50:50 split between good athletes and people who won't stand a chance.
5. Rugbylaw hope to run two combines per year.

 

[munstermuffin]

Piece by Murray Kinsella, one of the best rugby journalists around:
http://thescore.thejournal.ie/nrfl-...ball-1423687-Apr2014/?utm_source=twitter_self

A few notes on it:
1. Many of the European clubs were represented by one agent, Jonathan Stuart of Top Marque Sports.
2. A player has been signed to an English club already, subject to gaining a work permit.
3. Thoughts from it are that it's primarily wingers and outside centres who'll be unearthed with number 8s and blindsides also possibilities.
4. It was roughly a 50:50 split between good athletes and people who won't stand a chance.
5. Rugbylaw hope to run two combines per year.

Was chatting to a fella in the know for Munster. Said there was a lot of failed NFL college stars that seemed to be groomed as wingers or 6s and 8s. That most with huge weight just were too tallfor propping