[November Tests 2017 EOYT] England vs. Argentina (11/11/2017)

[ElRoach]

Ok, looking at the squad, and how things have been going recently, I would like to see the below. Feel free to hurl your thoughts at me:

I want to see a younger squad really. So people like Genge and Jamie George should be starting. I don't want to see Haskell or Robshaw starting either.

I would like to see a new captain. Hartley will not be the captain in the world cup. So this needs to be addressed now.

I want to see Farrell at 10. I also want to see Slade at 12, and Watson at 15. The reason for this in my eyes, is that Ford can, by himself, give away a try (or more) due to his lack in size. Dont get me wrong, his attacking ability is very good, but you cant ignore him being run over 3 or 4 times a match. He does get targeted.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Hartley will not be the captain in the world cup.

Wouldn't stake your house on that. George has long been the better player, but if we keep winning Hartley will stay.

 

[MarkyH]

Ok, looking at the squad, and how things have been going recently, I would like to see the below. Feel free to hurl your thoughts at me:

I want to see a younger squad really. So people like Genge and Jamie George should be starting. I don't want to see Haskell or Robshaw starting either.

I would like to see a new captain. Hartley will not be the captain in the world cup. So this needs to be addressed now.

I want to see Farrell at 10. I also want to see Slade at 12, and Watson at 15. The reason for this in my eyes, is that Ford can, by himself, give away a try (or more) due to his lack in size. Dont get me wrong, his attacking ability is very good, but you cant ignore him being run over 3 or 4 times a match. He does get targeted.

Disagree completely. Ford has show time and time again for England how useful he is, and his defence is spot on for his size. Its something people like to target him with but he's been great for Leicester in defence this season. He will be targeted, but his management from 10 is worth more than that, and I don't recall seeing him giving away try after try because of his defence. Farrell is our 12 and gives us such a stable yet creative platform.

Slade is a 13, has played 13 more than any position. Yes, he looks like he could be ideal at 12 but has never been outstanding at 10 or 12 for Chiefs... I would like to see him get a run at 12 but I'm not that fussed. He's a playmaker 13, but can also run good lines and bring wingers into play.

Why will Hartley not be captaion at the WC? I would like to see George start, as he's the better hooker, but Hartley is EJs no1 and can't see any reason why he won't be captain in 2 years time.

All England are missing is more power in the backs. Would love a Tuilagi or similar, or a JD clone who can carry big time in the backs. Even as a bench option.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I want to see Farrell at 10. I also want to see Slade at 12, and Watson at 15. The reason for this in my eyes, is that Ford can, by himself, give away a try (or more) due to his lack in size. Dont get me wrong, his attacking ability is very good, but you cant ignore him being run over 3 or 4 times a match. He does get targeted.

When has ford given away a try?

He hasn't been run through at Tigers yet and other than that awful game v Wasps and hughes was pretty good in defence with Bath he won't do bone crunching hits but he rarely misses.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Haskell isn't in the squad, let alone in consideration for starting.

The age of the squad is about right as far as I can see.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Haskell has already been dropped

 

[MarkyH]

We beat the Argies in Argentina with a young and depleted squad. We have strength all over the park, young players who look capable and have potential in many positions. We're going to struggle to trim it down to a 45 man squad in 2019 never mind a 31. Just need to find a powerful 12 or 13 in the next year or two

I think we need to field our strongest teams against Tier 1 nations. Injuries mean lots of young players will get there chance anyway. Then EJ will judge them in camp and see if they have the right mentality / identity to play test rugby

 

[MarkyH]

The average age of the 35 man squad is 25.37. That's very young for test Rugby. The oldest player is 32. Only Robshaw, Brown, Hartley, Cole & Care are over 30 and we have just as many players 20 and under. Imagine the learning that goes on in that squad.. Not just the game, but the mentality and responsibility that comes with that level of the game

I think England have a great pathway from U20s they are building and it's very exciting

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I feel the whole Ford tackling things is one of those things where 1 example is all some people need to ignore all the times it isn't true. Hughes ran through Ford a lot in 1 game but I can't think where blame can really be laid at Ford's feet for conceding a try. I'd be happier with Farrell at 10 now than a few years ago as he is a better attacker but I think Ford is still the best all round. We don't want to make the mistakes Wales have and just select on size and defense across the park to the detriment of ability.

 

[curtbob7]

Anyone got a definitive list of players, ideally by position, that Argentina cant or wont call up because they play in Europe?

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

All England are missing is more power in the backs.

And an accurate SH and a destructive TH, and a quicker less blinkered FB, and more carrying from the front row.....

Said it before but I don't think there's one single unit inked in for the starting XV in Japan. Although things are moving in the right direction, I'm not sure that's necessarily where Eddie wanted to be at this stage. Identifying the players is one thing; bedding them in as units and getting them the requisite international experience before Japan is quite another (Experience matters when doing those crucial little things properly at the right time under pressure - would your money be on the 161 caps of Retallick and Whitelock or the 35 of Krutoje?).

Front Row: Lot of choice at LH, questions at Hooker and TH.

Locks: Spoilt for choice. Perm any 2 from 4. What's the best combination, how does that spill into the back row?

Back Row; Billy, if fit, is a cert albeit one of a kind, but who will the flankers be? 7's totally up for grabs. Underhill's my choice, but will the Curries also get a look in? Will we be playing a lock at 6, if so, who? Is Robshaw done, is Simmonds the real deal or flavour of the month?

Halves: Youngs can be as woeful as brilliant. Can't see who would take his place, mind. Ford / Farrell will rumble on forever.

Centres: Farrell if not at 10 is a cert, but wouldn't more power be beneficial? And if Piers Francis is the answer I'm not sure what the question is. At 13 Daly or Joseph, but Slade's the form horse and brings something totally different - could you have a midfield of 3 play makers? Plus the spectre of Manu.

Back 3. Nowell May & Brown all have major critics on here; I'd only play one of them. Daly's not really a wing. Watson seems the only dead cert, but in which shirt?

Etc.

Will be very interesting to see where Eddie puts the emphasis in these AIs.

 

[MarkyH]

Good post @Old Hooker

While I agree on some of your points, I don't think we need World Class, faultless depth in each position.

The questions we have are down to how EJ see's the makeup in my opinion. We have choices and depth in each position, and youth coming through in others. Of course we want to see someone other than Brown at FB George start at HK and Tuilagi fully fit. We want Youngs to be always brilliant, but the answers are already there, its just EJ despite his greatness won't mix it up too much. The only position I don't see an option is 12/13 if we want a different style of play...

Only my 2 cents, but you can see what I mean ?

 

[Scotty]

Disagree completely. Ford has show time and time again for England how useful he is, and his defence is spot on for his size. Its something people like to target him with but he's been great for Leicester in defence this season. He will be targeted, but his management from 10 is worth more than that, and I don't recall seeing him giving away try after try because of his defence. Farrell is our 12 and gives us such a stable yet creative platform.

Slade is a 13, has played 13 more than any position. Yes, he looks like he could be ideal at 12 but has never been outstanding at 10 or 12 for Chiefs... I would like to see him get a run at 12 but I'm not that fussed. He's a playmaker 13, but can also run good lines and bring wingers into play.

Why will Hartley not be captaion at the WC? I would like to see George start, as he's the better hooker, but Hartley is EJs no1 and can't see any reason why he won't be captain in 2 years time.

All England are missing is more power in the backs. Would love a Tuilagi or similar, or a JD clone who can carry big time in the backs. Even as a bench option.

Agree completly,

Slade is a 13 because EJ said he sees him that way and asked him to focus on that. He's done that and had a damn good season for chiefs rather than moving about. Everyone rates george more but hartly is a great player and captain plus george makes one hell of an impact. Need LCD fit again to get some depth.

Agree on ford. Needs to stay. Slade as 12 was my thoughts last season but hes owned the 13 jersey and im not complaining. Deserves 22 shirt this weekend.

But who have we got luther burrell (just no) teo and manu (broken) and id that it in the whole of the AP that fit that mold, must me more young prospects coming through.

 

[Nudger]

Ford and Farrell are bang on form right now and as Farrell is by far our best 12 for how we play he starts there. Ford also just happens to probably be one of the best 5 FH's in the world so him as an attacking 10 with Farrell outside him makes sense to carry into 2019. If Brown has a problem with May then that's even more of a reason for him to swivel.

Farrell tackles great for a fh but not at inside centre sonny bill will cream him thats why Farrell didnt play inside centre till sb took the walk. So its not a world cup winning opcion
Farrell slade jj for me

 

[curtbob7]

Farrell tackles great for a fh but not at inside centre sonny bill will cream him thats why Farrell didnt play inside centre till sb took the walk. So its not a world cup winning opcion
Farrell slade jj for me

Two things. So you're saying that Farrell is a better 10 than Ford?

And you're saying Slade tackles better than Farrell?

Oh and another point, you're rating Slade very highly indeed to play him at 12 (where he's been underwhelming) at the expense of dropping Ford.

 

[curtbob7]

Lobo, Figallo, Carizza, Galarza, Leonardi, Isa, Socino, Bosch, Imhoff would all add to the Argentina set up. I cant think of any others.

 

[Nudger]

Two things. So you're saying that Farrell is a better 10 than Ford?

And you're saying Slade tackles better than Farrell?

Oh and another point, you're rating Slade very highly indeed to play him at 12 (where he's been underwhelming) at the expense of dropping Ford.

I think Farrell is world class
Totally underwhelmed by England inside centres I could even pick Barrett by far the best 12 playing currently just my opinon

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

While I agree on some of your points, I don't think we need World Class, faultless depth in each position.

Nor do I, although it would be nice, but I think you also kind of agree with what I'm saying. Good players gelling as a unit are far more effective than a couple of superstars doing their own thing. That comes from stability and familiarity; I think that's where we're lacking more than talent although there are a couple of positions where we'd hope for better individuals.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Christ are we still playing the "Farrell isn't a 12" game?
It's amazing we managed to win 18 games in a row when our 10 and 12 are, apparently, so ******* terrible.

Farrell is a strong tackler.
Ford's issue isn't his defence it's just that he's a manlet. For his size he does well.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Christ are we still playing the "Farrell isn't a 12" game?
It's amazing we managed to win 18 games in a row when our 10 and 12 are, apparently, so ******* terrible.

Farrell is a strong tackler.
Ford's issue isn't his defence it's just that he's a manlet. For his size he does well.

I think it's more of a 'Farrell is a 10' game. He's the epitome of a "2nd 5/8th" and the best in the world since at it since Giteau. The only times I've seen EJ's England side struggle with Ford/Faz is when they inexplicably tried to front up to Sexton and Henshaw physically and got beat badly, coming back to Ragerancher's point I really think that was the winning and losing of the game the gulf in class in the packs was overstated but Ford and Faz were nullified and couldn't give anyone outside them a chance whereas Sexton managed the game beautifully at 10 as per.

Farrell at 10 often fails to impress at international level, I'm hoping Leinster's meet Sarries this year as I think he'd struggle badly against that backrow in Europe too, he was horrendous in the 1st test and having Sexton at 10 and him at 12 was a huge improvement which should be noted considering the previous 12 is one of England's other options. Ford is definitely a better 10 when their is another player in the backline who can play a playmaking role at first receiver but not a top 5 10 worldwide is he in my opinion, Sexton, Barrett, Cruden, Russell, Sanchez and Lopez ensure that off the top of my head, he's in the next bracket with the likes of Foley and a free Paddy Jackson. I think Ford and Farrell is achieving what Jones wants them to to a high standard that probably only the first 6 I mentioned there (with the potential exception of Sanchez) could improve upon. A player like that would take them to one of the best three 10/12 axis in the world with Sexshaw and Barrett/Crotty (when that happens) to the best but when England match or beat both NZ and Ireland in every other unit but the front row and they have more options elsewhere I think Ford and Faz should be left to accumulate more and more minutes.