Next All Black coach?

[TRF_Olyy]

I would have thought Joseph would be a shoe in, but if he's recommitted to Japan...

The thought of Gatland leading the all blacks is pretty funny. Hope you like box kicks and SBW crash ball every phase

 

[TRF_heineken]

What about John Plumtree?

He's had that extra knowledge of SA teams as he also coached the Sharks. His assessments during this World Cup as a pundit on Supersport has been spot on.

 

[donmcdazzle]

I would have thought Joseph would be a shoe in, but if he's recommitted to Japan...

The thought of Gatland leading the all blacks is pretty funny. Hope you like box kicks and SBW crash ball every phase

Joseph does have form, I'm sure he would have an out in his contract for the ABs gig regardless. Ex-All Black, won Super Rugby, did well with Japan. Only thing he doesn't have that the likes of Henry, Hansen, Gatland and Schmidt have is top notch Northern hemisphere experience...

The Lions in 2013 played alright footy didn't they? 2017 version weren't too bad either... but yeah on the surface the attritional style wouldn't seem to suit the cattle we have / AB tradition.

 

[donmcdazzle]

What about John Plumtree?

He's had that extra knowledge of SA teams as he also coached the Sharks. His assessments during this World Cup as a pundit on Supersport has been spot on.

He isn't a bad shout, but probably sits behind Robertson in terms of local options given Razor has won everything he has gone for. Was he any good coaching in SA?

 

[TRF_heineken]

He isn't a bad shout, but probably sits behind Robertson in terms of local options given Razor has won everything he has gone for. Was he any good coaching in SA?

He was, well I thought he was. He basically revived Sharks rugby, and he started the trend of SA teams not being afraid to play in NZ. When he was coach, his teams would on a regular basis win their away games in NZ, and since then that has just spread to the other franchises too.

John Smit was one of the first guys to say that Plumtree changed their mindsets about playing in NZ which has been a great motivator.

Now I guess this might also play a part in him not being a prime choice, as he's in South Africa a lot. He has been here for most of the World Cup.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

The Lions in 2013 played alright footy didn't they? 2017 version weren't too bad either... but yeah on the surface the attritional style wouldn't seem to suit the cattle we have / AB tradition.

The players revolted against the coaches last time round - Sexton and Farrell led the backs sessions, and even the Welsh players (can't remember if it was Faletau or Warburton) said that they weren't doing, on the pitch, what the coaches told them to

 

[donmcdazzle]

The players revolted against the coaches last time round - Sexton and Farrell led the backs sessions, and even the Welsh players (can't remember if it was Faletau or Warburton) said that they weren't doing, on the pitch, what the coaches told them to

Oh wow, did not know that. How has he been appointed again?!

 

[Zapphod]

I think it would be worth considering if we honestly thought the young NZ coaches coming through weren't up to it...sounds like you just want Jake White regardless of the other options

I wouldn't say not to White but he is one of a number of successful foreign coaches we could look at although surprisingly I don't think Gatland is the answer.

I am not entirely convinced our next tier of coaches are up to it furthermore I am worried that our rugby while incredibly successful over the past 10 years has been surpassed but we don't seem to have the ability to come up with a new game, essentially I think we are heading down the path that our Sevens team has gone where Tietjens simply stayed too long.

I certainly believe Scott Robertson is the future coach of the All Blacks but I also think we need an experienced International coach in the short term to team him with.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Oh wow, did not know that. How has he been appointed again?!

Every other B&I international coach turned it down and I'm guessing they didn't want to look at club level coaches

 

[TheOvalBall]

Ian Foster with Jamie Joseph and Tony Brown as his assistants would be pretty solid, i think.

 

[Zapphod]

Ian Foster with Jamie Joseph and Tony Brown as his assistants would be pretty solid, i think.

Foster is pretty lackluster and I don't understand the Joseph/Brown fan club.
I may be wrong here but turning a third tier team into a second tier team is a much easier task than improving one best teams, there is no guarantee that success with a low ranked team will scale up.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I may be wrong here but turning a third tier team into a second tier team is a much easier task than improving one best teams, there is no guarantee that success with a low ranked team will scale up.

I think it's the exact opposite.

To get a lower tiered team to perform at a higher level than they are accustomed to, takes a lot of effort, skill, funding, training & planning. And when you have a very limited pool of players to do it with, you are basically fighting with one hand tied behind your back.

Whereas if you coach a team like the AB's, you basically have a lot of freedom to work with, and you can pick and choose whoever you want. Should be a lot easier...

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Contracts can be broken, as we saw with EJ. If ABs really want Joseph then they could pay Japan RU an exit fee. I doubt Joseph would turn down the opportunity if offered it.

 

[RedruthRFC]

I think it's the exact opposite.

To get a lower tiered team to perform at a higher level than they are accustomed to, takes a lot of effort, skill, funding, training & planning. And when you have a very limited pool of players to do it with, you are basically fighting with one hand tied behind your back.

Whereas if you coach a team like the AB's, you basically have a lot of freedom to work with, and you can pick and choose whoever you want. Should be a lot easier...

I don't agree, and the way I look at it, nor does the law of diminishing returns. You appear to be saying that the skill set required is different to that of a tier one coach, so it seems strange that you would disagree with Zapphod's point that the success won't necessarily scale up. I frequently make this point about club (or provincial) coaches stepping up to international jobs (often re: Rob Baxter and the England job).

 

[RedruthRFC]

Contracts can be broken, as we saw with EJ. If ABs really want Joseph then they could pay Japan RU an exit fee. I doubt Joseph would turn down the opportunity if offered it.

Didn't the RFU buy Jones out of his contract? It's hard to imagine Tew sticking his hand in his back pocket to do the same.

 

[RedruthRFC]

I think Gatlin shot himself in the foot during the Lions series, especially with the NZ public? Complaints he's also one dimensional from Welsh fans and UK fans alike.

I never thought I'd be going to bat for Gatland, but the more I think of it, the more he might not be a bad choice.

Most people seem to accept that the reason for his one dimensional approach with Wales is a lack of players available to him to play a more expansive game and the lack of a backs coach to implement it. His love affair with Rob Howley looks all the more stupid now that we're told that Howley's indiscretions were the worst kept secret in South Wales, and that must be a black mark against him, but if NZR were to ensure they had significant input in to his appointments, it needn't be too big a problem. Talking of staff, if Gatland came free with Shaun Edwards, it would be a very good 2 for 1 deal.

Like anyone else who is under contract, it's hard to imagine Steve Tew being prepared to pay to get them out of it, so this might all be for naught.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I don't agree, and the way I look at it, nor does the law of diminishing returns. You appear to be saying that the skill set required is different to that of a tier one coach, so it seems strange that you would disagree with Zapphod's point that the success won't necessarily scale up. I frequently make this point about club (or provincial) coaches stepping up to international jobs (often re: Rob Baxter and the England job).

No, I think you're reading my post wrong, or I maybe said it wrong. What I mean by skillset, is the players, not the coaches. Tier 1 teams' players already have most of the skills drilled into them, and the coaches mostly does the finishing off in areas where there might be improvement. Whereas Tier 3 & 2 players, needs to learn some more skills to become polished players.

For me it's not just about the coach itself, but also about the players he's coaching/going to coach as well as the financial backing from the administrators towards his team.

 

[RedruthRFC]

No, I think you're reading my post wrong, or I maybe said it wrong. What I mean by skillset, is the players, not the coaches. Tier 1 teams' players already have most of the skills drilled into them, and the coaches mostly does the finishing off in areas where there might be improvement. Whereas Tier 3 & 2 players, needs to learn some more skills to become polished players.

For me it's not just about the coach itself, but also about the players he's coaching/going to coach as well as the financial backing from the administrators towards his team.

Again, I'm not sure if I'm following your point. If a good tier 2 / 3 coach is more akin to a skills coach, why would turning a tier three team in to a tier two team be an indicator of guaranteed success with a team where, as you say this job isn't necessary. I agree with your contention that the skill sets required are different, but don't understand why this should translate in to having the different skill set required by a tier one job.

Rugby aside, on a common sense level, the diminishing returns point is the more significant one. Given an healthy, untrained, motivated individual, I'd feel confident in doubling their powerlifting total. Give me a competitive powerlifter and I wouldn't havethe first clue about how to add 10% to their lifts.

I think your last paragraph is trying to say that a tier one coach should be a good fit for the job that he's being looked at for. There's definately something in this for most jobs given that pretty much every nation has their limitations somewhere, but I don't really see how this is relevant to tier 3 success being relevant to the potential for tier 1 success.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Again, I'm not sure if I'm following your point. If a good tier 2 / 3 coach is more akin to a skills coach, why would turning a tier three team in to a tier two team be an indicator of guaranteed success with a team where, as you say this job isn't necessary. I agree with your contention that the skill sets required are different, but don't understand why this should translate in to having the different skill set required by a tier one job.

Rugby aside, on a common sense level, the diminishing returns point is the more significant one. Given an healthy, untrained, motivated individual, I'd feel confident in doubling their powerlifting total. Give me a competitive powerlifter and I wouldn't havethe first clue about how to add 10% to their lifts.

I think your last paragraph is trying to say that a tier one coach should be a good fit for the job that he's being looked at for. There's definately something in this for most jobs given that pretty much every nation has their limitations somewhere, but I don't really see how this is relevant to tier 3 success being relevant to the potential for tier 1 success.

Okay, so let's take Eddie Jones as an example.

Eddie is a top class coach, and many tier 1 nations have had him as a coach with success. But he also coached Japan and the most memorable victory was when they beaten SA in the world cup in their first match of the tournament. But try as they did, they just couldn't make the playoffs in that WC. Their players lacked certain skills to cope with certain situations, whereas should EJ have been coaching a Tier 1 team such as England or Australia, the players would probably have done a better job on the field in those situations, and could probably have had a better outcome in the game for their team.

Part of that is coaching. But part of that is the training from schoolboy level to senior level.

So the question would be, where did EJ gained the most success?

 

[RedruthRFC]

So the question would be, where did EJ gained the most success?

That's a question, just not one that is all that relevant to Zapphod's point. To answer it, I would say that what Joseph has achieved subsequently suggests that it wasn't with Japan, although I'm sure Joseph has built on some of Jones' foundations.

We appear to be going around in circles, which I put down to a language barrier. To try and progress thing and bring some clarity, you have explained the skills you feel that turning a tier 3 side into a tier 2 one demonstrates, but you haven't explained why this guarantees success with a teir 1 team, which to me was the crux of Zapphod's point.