Nation

[Black-Monday]

I feel economically we are stronger as a union, as the term union means to bring 2 or more things into one. Presumably for positive reasons.

However where this conflicts is politically and socially. The view I hold is why should Scotland vote inside our parliament, where matters do not concern them. However do we have any say on what happens north of the border?

I genuinly think that if we look past the infighting, we are stronger as one. So all the nationalist parties can shove their policies up their arse for the sake of 'self identity' and 'self sustainability'. As those are 18th century ideas, where you could live off your land and so forth. We live in a world where investment rules and to close your doors only makes you blindly happy, yet poor, strong example with North Korea. Look how Kim Jong II is crawling to the US and China in recent years.

BM

 

[wigan_rlfc]

You invaded our land, killed our people, and now you still control part of Ireland that never was your to begin with. The native Irish people owned this land. The native Irish people want it back.
You see politicly, the Republic never owned the North, neither the Free State. But if you did know your history, you would know that the british controled the Pale (Dublin) for years and claimed to rule the whole of Ireland. Anyway years later when the Army was finding it hard in Ireland, there was the plantation. People from Scotland and England were given free land in the North, and so developed into Unionism, kicking the local native Irish off their land. Yes, THEIR native Irish land. Ireland is one island, our island, why do you think the IRA fought for? It makes geographic sence to give our land back and let us reunite our country which you devided.
[/b]

So do you not think that the Anglo-Ulster/Ulster-scots can live on their native land where they have for hundreds of years? Whats wrong with having two separate states on one piece of land? Northern Ireland was kept by the UK in response to the people of the region expressing strong, even militant desire to remain a part of the UK. Do you not think that partition seemed a sensible idea?

 

[St Day 3]

<div class='quotemain'>
Im a Cornishman, not an Englishman. But i have the good grace to accept that the English, through both millitary and pollitical means have subjugated this island under than banner of "Britain"
Perhaps the rest of our Celtic cousins should wake up to this and take note of what weve all gained from the act of union.
[/b]

Funny, Ireland gained very very little. Well England did grant us a famon i supose.. But when Ireland became a Republic, our economy grew and our little Nation is now amongst the richest in Europe and the world (Higher than the UK). All this was gained from parting from the UK. I think if Scotland parted, they could concentrate souly on Scotland itself and become a stronger nation. Wales.. well, they do need to remain part of the UK because they have little resources but a proud nation and respect to them.

But you should all Join our Irish republic and become rich and have a bit of craic and a drink or 7!
[/b][/quote]
The upturn in the Irish economy is a fairly recent thing i beleive, and seeing as you broke away in 1911 or there abouts i think thats a pretty tenious link you make. Irish economic fortunes are now controlled form a small European city called Brussles, good luck with that and its good to see your still fiercly"independant"

<div class='quotemain'>
Perhaps the rest of our Celtic cousins should wake up to this and take note of what weve all gained from the act of union.
[/b]

You mean the European Union? That's what has made a huge difference to Ireland. Scotland and Wales should have gone for it when it was unpopular but profitable. Too late now, with all the eastern states coming in.

Britain made so many **** mistakes after WWII. Question is: are they still making those mistakes?
[/b][/quote]
No i mean THE act of union which consolidated the home nations under British rule

 

[Prestwick]

You're having a laugh right? What figures actually prove that the Irish Economy is bigger than the UK's? What statistics show that person for person, the Irish are more well off than the British?

Exactly, there are none. Eurostat assumes the correct way of measuring this by measuring it as GNP per person (rather than GDP per person which does not take into account money earned abroad, etc).

When you look at it the correct way, Brits are still 20% richer than their Irish cousins. Also, there is no way in hell that Ireland is in the top five economies, or even the top ten.

Actually, Ireland is part of the Eurozone which is measured in official statistics these days. For all this so called "fervent independence", Ireland has actually swapped decisions on economic matters from Dublin to the European Central Bank.

Ireland is as it has always been: a tiny nation at the mercy of the giants of Europe. France, Germany, Italy and Spain care as much for Ireland now as they did at the time of the Battle of Boyne (i.e. not much).

Europe is a dog eat dog arena, and the misty eyed idealists in Scotland, Wales and Ireland occasionally forget this, even when they're dropping their trousers to get done from behind by their more powerful masters in the Franco-German alliance.

But hey, look on the bright side, you may be the EU's *****, but at least you're living in peace and prosperity without fear for your lives or being discriminated against because you're a Catholic. Y'see, this all balances out. And I'm being serious here.

 

[wigan_rlfc]

Actually Pres, there were Freench, Dutch and Danish troops at the Boyne but they most likely were interested far more in the English/Scottish succession than Ireland.

 

[Prestwick]

Well what I meant was the grand European powers of the last 700 years (France, England, Spain and Holland) using Ireland in their little games against each other.

Ireland thought it had a friend in the continental powers, how naive. It doesn't excuse one iota what has happened in history but France, Spain, et al were no benevolent benefactors. Not in the slightest, if anything they would have turned Ireland into something similar to how Spain treated Holland before the wars of succession: their own little fiefdom.

Regardless who had won or lost in any of the major battles over Ireland, the island would have had to face up to being dictated terms by the victor. Whatever happened, the Irish themselves would lose out.

It is a little more complicated than that though, Ireland had many diverse groups, from the "olde English" (i.e. Normans) in the South to the native confederates. Each had their own agenda and this in turn meant it better to support on evil (the English crown or France or Spain) against another (a bunch of raving Puritan nutters from England or Holland). By being so fragmented, that never helped the cause.

 

[eoino]

You're having a laugh right? What figures actually prove that the Irish Economy is bigger than the UK's? What statistics show that person for person, the Irish are more well off than the British?

Exactly, there are none. Eurostat assumes the correct way of measuring this by measuring it as GNP per person (rather than GDP per person which does not take into account money earned abroad, etc).

When you look at it the correct way, Brits are still 20% richer than their Irish cousins. Also, there is no way in hell that Ireland is in the top five economies, or even the top ten.

Actually, Ireland is part of the Eurozone which is measured in official statistics these days. For all this so called "fervent independence", Ireland has actually swapped decisions on economic matters from Dublin to the European Central Bank.

Ireland is as it has always been: a tiny nation at the mercy of the giants of Europe. France, Germany, Italy and Spain care as much for Ireland now as they did at the time of the Battle of Boyne (i.e. not much).

Europe is a dog eat dog arena, and the misty eyed idealists in Scotland, Wales and Ireland occasionally forget this, even when they're dropping their trousers to get done from behind by their more powerful masters in the Franco-German alliance.

But hey, look on the bright side, you may be the EU's *****, but at least you're living in peace and prosperity without fear for your lives or being discriminated against because you're a Catholic. Y'see, this all balances out. And I'm being serious here.
[/b]

Eh.. most of that is complete bullshit. I mean come on, you claim to be a world power.. like your economy would bust if you tried to join the euro lol. Your "Empire" you had was made up of parts of the poorest and weakest countries of the world. India, a few islands off Africa, parts of America lol, Ireland. Even then, you were forced out of Ireland because your ECONOMY could'nt sustain holding an Army in Ireland. You have 60mil people, if we had 60mil people we would be far richer than the UK.

Yes were a little country, with a big mouth. Look at every president of the USA, nearly ALL of them have Irish blood. Half of South America was freed by Irishmen, most of whome were BORN in Ireland. For a little nation, we battle abouve our waight. Get over it. :wall: Give us back our land :zzz: :wacko: :ranting:

 

[wigan_rlfc]

<div class='quotemain'>
You're having a laugh right? What figures actually prove that the Irish Economy is bigger than the UK's? What statistics show that person for person, the Irish are more well off than the British?

Exactly, there are none. Eurostat assumes the correct way of measuring this by measuring it as GNP per person (rather than GDP per person which does not take into account money earned abroad, etc).

When you look at it the correct way, Brits are still 20% richer than their Irish cousins. Also, there is no way in hell that Ireland is in the top five economies, or even the top ten.

Actually, Ireland is part of the Eurozone which is measured in official statistics these days. For all this so called "fervent independence", Ireland has actually swapped decisions on economic matters from Dublin to the European Central Bank.

Ireland is as it has always been: a tiny nation at the mercy of the giants of Europe. France, Germany, Italy and Spain care as much for Ireland now as they did at the time of the Battle of Boyne (i.e. not much).

Europe is a dog eat dog arena, and the misty eyed idealists in Scotland, Wales and Ireland occasionally forget this, even when they're dropping their trousers to get done from behind by their more powerful masters in the Franco-German alliance.

But hey, look on the bright side, you may be the EU's *****, but at least you're living in peace and prosperity without fear for your lives or being discriminated against because you're a Catholic. Y'see, this all balances out. And I'm being serious here.
[/b]

Eh.. most of that is complete bullshit. I mean come on, you claim to be a world power.. like your economy would bust if you tried to join the euro lol. Your "Empire" you had was made up of parts of the poorest and weakest countries of the world. India, a few islands off Africa, parts of America lol, Ireland. Even then, you were forced out of Ireland because your ECONOMY could'nt sustain holding an Army in Ireland. You have 60mil people, if we had 60mil people we would be far richer than the UK.

Yes were a little country, with a big mouth. Look at every president of the USA, nearly ALL of them have Irish blood. Half of South America was freed by Irishmen, most of whome were BORN in Ireland. For a little nation, we battle abouve our waight. Get over it. :wall: Give us back our land :zzz: :wacko: :ranting:
[/b][/quote]

Why would we want an Empire made up of poor countries? Thats right, we didn't. Canada, Australia, South Africa, India etc. Vast natural resources from gold, diamonds, vast cropland etc. I would hardly call controlling an area from Cairo to the Cape of good hope 'a few islands off Africa'. And Ireland wasn't in the empire, Ireland was an equal part of the UK i.e 'The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland'. And this high number of US presidents are mostly decended from the Ulster-Scots protestant tradition who emigrated to America a long long time before the more famous emigration that occured during the Irish potato famine.

 

[getofmeland]

Look at every president of the USA, nearly ALL of them have Irish blood.[/b]

No they claim to be Born with Irish Blood, because they want the paddy vote...

Also so why don't the 'Irish' Americans give back the land to the Native American Indians??

Cos at the end of the day you took it from them...

 

[Prestwick]

Right, obviously somebody needs to get a history lesson here. So lets go through it point by point.

Eh.. most of that is complete bullshit. I mean come on, you claim to be a world power.. like your economy would bust if you tried to join the euro lol. [/b]

Where is the evidence for that? Do you actually have any facts, figures or any other claptrap to back that up? Thought not. Do your research before opening your mouth next time.

Your "Empire" you had was made up of parts of the poorest and weakest countries of the world. India, a few islands off Africa, parts of America and (changed for my sanity) Ireland.[/b]

Another overly simplified and ignorant view. Actually it was far more complicated than that as the 300 years of gradual British domination over South Asia showed. The Mughals, while being besieged on all sides and suffering from infighting was still a substantial power to be reckoned with. To take somewhere like India by force from the get go would have required substantial men and material. Much like say the United States needing 350,000 - 500,000 troops to pacify Iraq today. And not only that, if overtly threatened by military force, the Mughals could well have turned to the French for extra support. So actually, it was far from certain who would control South Asia.

And while it was made up of areas of the world which had not even conglomerated into modern nations, they were some of the most valuable areas of earth. There was an economic motive behind British expansion as well as a moral and prestige. We went where the trade was and we went with our own half baked and awfully self righteous ideas on how they should live and which god they should preach. Not as bad as the French or the Germans who beat and killed their natives and not as bad as the Belgians (who turned the Congo into one huge slave labour camp).

Even then, you were forced out of Ireland because your ECONOMY could'nt sustain holding an Army in Ireland. You have 60mil people, if we had 60mil people we would be far richer than the UK.[/b]

Again, utter crap with no historical facts or evidence to support this. We withdrew from Ireland after a sustained campaign in Ireland caused outcry in the UK about why we should be there in the first place. Home rule for Ireland was on the cards decades before the first shots were fired by the IRA or the Blacks & Tans. Gladstone was persuaded to back the idea as Prime Minister in the late 1880s and early 1890s and it was only a Tory House of Lords who prevented Ireland from having some kind of independence 20 or 30 years early.

There is no evidence to suggest that if Ireland had 60 Million people you would be far richer than us in the UK, first of all, you would have to make sure that the population in the UK wouldn't have increased by then and also you haven't accounted for the pressures of having 60 Million in an area smaller than England. Pressures of space, power, water and employment, the very basics would be put under serious pressure.

Such jingoistic and stupid statements only highlight that actually, its allot more complicated than you think.

Yes were a little country, with a big mouth. Look at every president of the USA, nearly ALL of them have Irish blood.[/b]

Again, proof please? Have you been to the Library of Congress and researched this yourself? Most of them could have the blood of half a dozen nationalities in them as they are even more of a mongrel nation than us English! So be very careful when you say that because actually, I could stand up and say that almost all the US Presidents have English blood in them too!

Half of South America was freed by Irishmen, most of whome were BORN in Ireland.[/b]

Freed them from what exactly? Freed them to be put into virtual corporate slavery by the big American corporations which descended on South America in the late 19th century, freed them to work their lives for an absolute pittance, have no chance of seeing a doctor or forming a trade union and finally, die horrible deaths either at the mines or at home in poverty so awful that it'd make 19th century Cork look like Beverly Hills?

Or maybe you freed them to beat up on the indigenous population and segregate them from their lands, their property and their rights? Only in the last three years has Evo Morales, became one of South America's FIRST Native American Presidents for which he has had to fight every inch of the way to give his people a voice for the first time in Bolivia? Jesus christ mate, open your eyes!

For a little nation, we battle abouve our waight. Get over it.[/b]

Nobody is suggesting that you haven't, so I don't really have anything to get over to begin with! :lol: If anything mate, Brits are richer than the Irish and Ireland isn't responsible for everything that has happened here on this earth. Get over it.

 

[melon]

<div class='quotemain'>Look at every president of the USA, nearly ALL of them have Irish blood.[/b]

No they claim to be Born with Irish Blood, because they want the paddy vote...

Also so why don't the 'Irish' Americans give back the land to the Native American Indians??

Cos at the end of the day you took it from them...
[/b][/quote]

Well i guess that would be because the american people would be forced out of their homes and jobs ...everyone would be homeless and jobless....just aint gunna happen.

However, the native americans should be given their 'sacred' sites of course.

Although not currently at the forefront of issues or anywhere near it at the moment in Australia, the Aboringinal land rights issues and them wanting John Howard to say sorry for the way they have been treated, will always be a raging debate.

 

[getofmeland]

Its bound to be. You bunch of convicts down there...

Well what Eion Zero was saying that it was neccessary to do that to get their land back... at the end of the day the land belongs to No One.... The Earth Owns it we just develop it and destroy it... (Hippy Alert!!!)

 

[melon]

That's a big picture.

Yeah, us convicts have a lot of issues

 

[Prestwick]

When I was in Japan, I had an awesome chat with an Aussie who was in the army up until the mid 1990s. Really cool guy, reminded me of the awesome Aussie bowler of the 1970s or 80s.

Anyway, when we asked him about the referendum, he surprised us by being a staunch Royalist and blaming the Republican movement on "those bloody Irish-Aussies pushin' their agenda!"

Now this is thoroughly confusing, Aussies of TRF, can you all set the record straight?

 

[melon]

I'm quite young so I don't really have a perfectly cast informed opinion, but our current system is working. There is nothing wrong with it. Our affiliation with the 'home country' and being a part of a monarchy is somewhat comfortable I guess.

 

[shtove]

I give you the greatest Irish-Aussie after Ned Kelly: the man who stroked the Queen's loins, Paul Keating ...

Speech on national identity: http://www.keating.org.au/main.cfm
Collection of his political insults: http://www.webcity.com.au/keating/
Opera based on his rise and fall: http://www.keatingtheopera.com/

He was fantastic at the dispatch box - as fiery and dominant as Thatcher, but with a wicked sense of humour. Sadly, YouTube has no decent clips of him spraying the enemy lines with verbal bullets.

 

[O'Rothlain]

<div class='quotemain'>Look at every president of the USA, nearly ALL of them have Irish blood.[/b]

No they claim to be Born with Irish Blood, because they want the paddy vote...

Also so why don't the 'Irish' Americans give back the land to the Native American Indians??

Cos at the end of the day you took it from them...
[/b][/quote]
It's not because they want the "Paddy Vote," it's because they are genuinely proud...like the rest of us. Sure, their great-grand father may have knocked up a girl from Kalamazoo who's parents were Sweedish-African emigrants, but they passed on the Irish traditions.

I personally don't own any land...so their you have it. However my great great grandfather (an Irishman from Co. Mayo) was a Sooner in the Oklahoma Land Run. So, he sorta took a bit of Indian land.
The Indians are being given back tremendous amounts of land, as well as being compensated though free health care, college education, grants, business perks and yes, casinos. It's a start, it's not perfect. But it's more than the English will ever attempt to do for the people of Ireland.

Again, proof please? Have you been to the Library of Congress and researched this yourself? Most of them could have the blood of half a dozen nationalities in them as they are even more of a mongrel nation than us English! So be very careful when you say that because actually, I could stand up and say that almost all the US Presidents have English blood in them too![/b]

1/4 of US Presidents have Irish Blood

 

[Prestwick]

I give you the greatest Irish-Aussie after Ned Kelly: the man who stroked the Queen's loins, Paul Keating ...

Speech on national identity: http://www.keating.org.au/main.cfm
Collection of his political insults: http://www.webcity.com.au/keating/
Opera based on his rise and fall: http://www.keatingtheopera.com/

He was fantastic at the dispatch box - as fiery and dominant as Thatcher, but with a wicked sense of humour. Sadly, YouTube has no decent clips of him spraying the enemy lines with verbal bullets.
[/b]

The problem with Keating though was that he was an arrogant *******. Also, for all his desperate attempts to try and un-hitch Australia from its connections to the UK by 'engagement with Asia', he failed miserably with most Asian leaders literally laughing him out of town and Australia still pondering its role in the world in its post Dominion era. He may have set up APEC, but not many Asian nations took much notice.

If Paul Keating was the Australian Parliamentary equivalent of Chihiro on TRF, John Howard is the equivalent of someone like....like....well not an outrageous guy who thinks before he speaks.

But, if anything, he really should be remembered more for his major economic reforms, allot of them actually implemented by John Howard's administration. And herein lies his legacy, back in the late 1980s and early 1990s, when Keating's attempts to wow Asia were at their most desperate peak, Australia was referred to by one Asian head of state as the "trailer trash of Asia" to the chuckles and chortles of the assembled Asian Tigers.

Today however, now that Keating's policies have had the time to take effect and two decades on, you see the roles suddenly reversed. The so called tigers have collapsed and are now actually flocking to a highly successful Australia which has the manufacturing, service sector, mining and the know how to make things happen.

When you think about it, Keating didn't really need to chase Asia, if he kept his eyes on the long term, he would have been more prudent to wait for the Australian economy to mature and simply wait for Asia to come to him.

Now that is a legacy for Australia to celebrate.

 

[shtove]

Yes were a little country, with a big mouth. Look at every president of the USA, nearly ALL of them have Irish blood.[/b]

Again, proof please? Have you been to the Library of Congress and researched this yourself? Most of them could have the blood of half a dozen nationalities in them as they are even more of a mongrel nation than us English! So be very careful when you say that because actually, I could stand up and say that almost all the US Presidents have English blood in them too!
[/b]

The point was made already that most of the early presidents were from Scots-Ulster roots. And it's really only since the mid 20thC that the teary-eyed appeal to the Oul' Sod has been mandatory in presidential campaigns. I remember Reagan turning up in Ballyporeen in 1984 - it rained all day. Too-ra-loo-ra-loora ...

Anyway, interesting thing about "white" America's origins: apart from the bits-n-bobs from Russia, Greece, France, Scotland etc, it's 6% English, 6% Jewish (hmmm ... is that a nationality?), 8% Swedish, 12% Italian, 15% Irish, and 26% ... German! As far as I understand it, Germans-Americans are mostly in the mid-west - the heartland of Republican political support.

The USA is a land of liberty, choice, opportunity and ... conformism. A wonderful place, but very harsh if you step out of line. Maybe the figures on national origins help explain the confusing mixture.

 

[Prestwick]

When I heard the father of Binyamin Netanyahu (former Israeli Prime Minister), joke darkly that nobody could trust the (Arab Jews) (i.e. the Jewish communities from North Africa) and that they should have white (i.e. European) officers in the forces, I seriously disagree with the notion that "Jewish" is either a race or a nationality.