My Ireland Team

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

It's hard to call how the Ireland team is going to look. By and large the team and extended squad will look the same as during the November tests although I hope Kidney has the balls to reward form and includes the likes of David Pollack, Mike Ross, Darren Cave, Sean O'Brien, Devin Toner, Niall Ronan, Johne Murphy, Gordon D'arcy (now that he's injury free) and Ian Keatley ahead of those showing little of no form (Barry Murphy, Johnny Sexton, Shane Jennings, Gavin Duffy, Shane Horgan, Andrew Trimble, Tom Court and Tony Buckley).

Kearney at 15 is what I really want to see happen. I'd rather they put Fitzgerald out wide (since he's not showing as much form in the centre). Use Earls as aback 3 player for the moment - he'll be an excellent cente in future but he's not ready yet. Select the centres from BOD, O'Driscoll, Wallace and Cave with the Leinster pair probably first in line. Ferris must start at blindside. Reward form alongside POC in the 2nd row. Be it Ryan, DOC, O'Kelly, Toner, Caldwell, Casey, O'Driscoll or Cullen, I really don't care who. Again, reward form at 9 and at 2 - there are a lot of evenly matched hookers and scrumhalves in the country right now. Hopefully Healy will provide a genuine alternative to Horan and will get at least one start in the 6 Nations.

 

[JohnBE]

yep I agree to alot of what you're saying


But lets look at something mathematically for a second.. Ireland have 3 world class full backs, in my opinion.. you have Girv, Murphy and Kearney..

Of which the best is Kearney.. however.. we are low on top class wingers, so instead of dropping two excellent full backs out of the fold - Dempsy and Murphy, if you play Kearney at 11 like they're doing and Rotate Dempsey and Murphy.. you get to use more of your talent on the pitch..

I think Shane Horgan shouldn't be on the 22 anymore, and personally I have trouble selecting a 14.. maybe earls?

And where I disagree is at 13, I'd play Fitzgerald and O'Driscoll at 12.. you have to keep BOD starting, he's slowed down a lot and he's a shadow of the player he was but he's vastly experienced and one of the best tackling centres I've seen.

You don't want to make too many changes.

I also think O'Kelly should be atleast getting the bench and bring him on for the second half.. the guy can change a scrum and a lineout, fantastic set peice second row..

And finally. I also agree about Healy .. we need a backup and eventual replacement for Horan, same with Buckley and Hayes.. need to start playing those guys..

if only buckley was a better scrumager, but his work in the rucks is fantastic I think

 

[MunsterMan]

You shouldn't have to pick anybody based on reputation. Wallace and Cave should be 12 and 13, And if you want to pick Humphreys or Keatley at 10 you need Wallace at 12 to take a bit of the pressure of them.
Tomás is a shoe in at 9, with Frank Murphy and Eoin Reddan behind him, but Boss is showing some form now that the whole rape thing is over.
Johnne Murphy needs to be included in the squad, but I think it is too early for him to start on the wing. Kearney at Fullback, Bowe on the right is a certainty as well but the left wing isn't. I would pick one of Andrew Trimble, Luke Fitzgerald or Keith Earls.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

I see your point with regards Kearney and it's one which I do, in part, agree with. Kearney's versatility allows Ireland put him on the wing if it's a troublesome spot. I definitely see merit in putting him wide with Murphy, Dempsey (not so much any more though) or Earls at 15.

In my opinion, the best back 3 is 15)Kearney 14)Bowe 11)Fitzgerald with Geordan Murphy an able deputy at full back and Keith Earls and Johne Murphy the "form" backup wingers. While neither Shane Horgan nor Andrew Trimble are on top of their game, they provide ample depth in times of an injury crisis. Horgan is definitely declining as a player but he still offers something if needs be.

Again, I can't complain with persisting with Fitzgerald is a centre. I wanted to see him tried out at 13 too. Having said that, he didn't grasp the opportunity. His passing was sub standard. He's scored 5 or 6 tries as a wing this year versus maybe one as a centre. Putting him in the back 3 makes better use of his counter attacking skills. He's brilliant at running support lines and finishing off moves. I also feel that it gives Fitzgerald license to roam (a la Shane Horgan when he was showing his best form) and tear defenses apart.

O'Driscoll will definitely start in the centre, even if his form doesn't merit it. He lends experience to the side which is necessary. I think it's wide open as to who plays alongside him - Fitzgerald will be in the mix even though I'd rather see him out wide, Wallace is playing some wonderful rugby at 12, Cave is beginning to blossom and D'arcy has an understanding with BOD already. Cave needs to work on his passing a bit but I love how he keeps his arms free in contact and looks to pop up an offload. I believe that O'Driscoll holding defenses at 12 with Fitzgerald running lines off Cave's offloads could be devastating.

I'm not sure what to make of Buckley. About a year ago he looked to have improved hugely in the scrum and offered a huge amount disrupting opposition ball in the ruck. He was a perfect impact sub. However he's fallen back into old, dare I say lazy, habits. John Muldoon is quoted in today's paper as saying that if you put pressure on Buckley early in a scrum, he's buckle and do nothing all game. It's not something I've noticed but I'll definitely look out for it in future.

 

[JohnBE]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MunsterMan @ Jan 4 2009, 04:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

You shouldn't have to pick anybody based on reputation. Wallace and Cave should be 12 and 13, And if you want to pick Humphreys or Keatley at 10 you need Wallace at 12 to take a bit of the pressure of them.
Tomás is a shoe in at 9, with Frank Murphy and Eoin Reddan behind him, but Boss is showing some form now that the whole rape thing is over.
Johnne Murphy needs to be included in the squad, but I think it is too early for him to start on the wing. Kearney at Fullback, Bowe on the right is a certainty as well but the left wing isn't. I would pick one of Andrew Trimble, Luke Fitzgerald or Keith Earls.[/b]

well I think you're going a little over the top on ulster players after a few good games...

choosing wallace and cave as centres would be a very bad decision especially if you put humphreys or Keatley at 10..

Humphrey's and Keatley are untested internationally , as is cave and I really don't think wallace is good enough to start for Ireland..

as for Boss, I wouldn't pick him at all..
basically your suggesting an ulster backline from 9 to 13?


For the crunch games experience is very important.. thats why O'Gara gets 10, Darcy gets 12 if he's fit and O'Driscoll gets 13, while I'd put Dempsey at full back, Kearney gets 11 and I think Bowe is too slow.. hell it even rhymes, I'd prefer Fitzy at 14 I think

But there is two things for the six nations.. you have Ireland's best starting 15 and then you have the players that we all want to see get GOOD game time.
starting games.. and being rotated..

Infact I think the debate as to ireland's best 15 isn't important// what is important is if Kidney will give enough of the players who outside reputation arn't top 15, and play them

Funnily enough I think for Ireland there is only one starting player..without question even if not playing well would always always get a place.. and thats O'Connell .. everyone else is interchangeable.. granted there are star players like David Wallace, Kearney and O'Gara.. but I think O'Connell just adds something special.. bit of a tangent off the point I know
I would quite easily leave all ulster players out of the best starting 15 with the exception of maybe Ferris at 6



ok I can't quote again.. so as regards Snoopy snoopy dog dog's post


For Fitzegerald, I'd love to see him get game time on the wing and in centre.. but I think it'll be very interesting to see how darcy plays at 12..

however! as Bod is slowing alot, I think Fitzegerald has to be first choice 13.. moving Bod to 12 but if thats done then you have to take out o'driscoll at 12 for Darcy unless you want to put O'driscoll at 13 which i don't think would be a great option..

It'll be nice to see Cave get one start anyway..maybe Kidney will bring in a few players for scotland..and a few different for Italy..and maybe one of two variations for the big games.. thats the way I'd do it anyway..

As for Buckley yeah I agree there's something about him.. and if he was training well you have to believe they'd select him ahead of Hayes but there you go..

I think are weakest area is the front row as regards individual players..

And my final reason for not mixing it up too much is look how bad the irish passing has been for maybe.. 2 years?.. not quite but close enough

and then you look at wales play beautiful flarey rugby with nearly all ball going to hand and you look at ireland and it's knock ons and forward passes everywhere.. I think if you make too many backs changes you'll just upset that even more..

Does anyone really think we have a chance for the 6 nations?.. I can't see it happening unfortunately

 

[MunsterMan]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JohnBE @ Jan 4 2009, 05:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MunsterMan @ Jan 4 2009, 04:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You shouldn't have to pick anybody based on reputation. Wallace and Cave should be 12 and 13, And if you want to pick Humphreys or Keatley at 10 you need Wallace at 12 to take a bit of the pressure of them.
Tomás is a shoe in at 9, with Frank Murphy and Eoin Reddan behind him, but Boss is showing some form now that the whole rape thing is over.
Johnne Murphy needs to be included in the squad, but I think it is too early for him to start on the wing. Kearney at Fullback, Bowe on the right is a certainty as well but the left wing isn't. I would pick one of Andrew Trimble, Luke Fitzgerald or Keith Earls.[/b]

well I think you're going a little over the top on ulster players after a few good games...

choosing wallace and cave as centres would be a very bad decision especially if you put humphreys or Keatley at 10..

Humphrey's and Keatley are untested internationally , as is cave and I really don't think wallace is good enough to start for Ireland..

as for Boss, I wouldn't pick him at all..
basically your suggesting an ulster backline from 9 to 13?


For the crunch games experience is very important.. thats why O'Gara gets 10, Darcy gets 12 if he's fit and O'Driscoll gets 13, while I'd put Dempsey at full back, Kearney gets 11 and I think Bowe is too slow.. hell it even rhymes, I'd prefer Fitzy at 14 I think

But there is two things for the six nations.. you have Ireland's best starting 15 and then you have the players that we all want to see get GOOD game time.
starting games.. and being rotated..

Infact I think the debate as to ireland's best 15 isn't important// what is important is if Kidney will give enough of the players who outside reputation arn't top 15, and play them

Funnily enough I think for Ireland there is only one starting player..without question even if not playing well would always always get a place.. and thats O'Connell .. everyone else is interchangeable.. granted there are star players like David Wallace, Kearney and O'Gara.. but I think O'Connell just adds something special.. bit of a tangent off the point I know
I would quite easily leave all ulster players out of the best starting 15 with the exception of maybe Ferris at 6

[/b][/quote]


I'm not sure if you are familiar with selecting players on form, but it involes picking the players who are playing the best rugby at the moment.

Ulster are playing good rugby at the moment, and Ferris is almost a definate starter while Wallace and Cave are on the way.

Looking at my post it looked like I ranked Boss as 4th choice scrumhalf, never said anything about picking him. The backline which I though i explained reasonably well in my post was:

9. O'Leary
10. O'Gara
11. Fitzgerald/Trimble/Earls
12. Wallace
13. Cave
14. Bowe
15. Kearney

Hardly Ulster 9-13 is it?

Forget rotation, there is a very real possibility that ROG will not be fit for every 6N game, and whoever is picked at 10 would benefit by having Wallace outside him.

Bowe is too slow yet you would pick Fitzgerald ahead of him Bowe is definitely faster than Fitz, Luke relies on his step to beat players (not that here is anything wrong with that).

 

[An Tarbh]

ROG should be fit for the Sale game according to Munster so there go any chances of Keatley or Humphreys getting a start. Even with a dodgy hamstring I'm sure Kidney would still look to start him. Still though on form he like O'Driscoll don't deserve to be there but we all know that's never gonna happen

 

[JohnBE]

I completely disagree with your centre paring.. and I honestly don't believe you can pick a team based on form only.
There are many other factors..

For big international games you're telling me you'd drop BOD for Cave or Wallace:s.. seriously?

Ireland's top try scorer with well over 80 caps for players with little experience?

sometimes reputation and experience is very important

I'm not saying don't play players because of form..but don't go over the top.. you have to keep the basic structure of the irish team there

 

[JohnBE]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (An Tarbh @ Jan 5 2009, 06:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

ROG should be fit for the Sale game according to Munster so there go any chances of Keatley or Humphreys getting a start. Even with a dodgy hamstring I'm sure Kidney would still look to start him. Still though on form he like O'Driscoll don't deserve to be there but we all know that's never gonna happen[/b]

sorry to double post but this is the unfortunate reality... I think O'Gara should start for the big games..England Wales Frances and then play Humphrey's for Italy and Keatley for Scotland.. however I can very easily see O'Gara start every game and get subbed off in the 78th minute like what they used to do with david humphreys.. he'd barely kick a ball

 

[An Tarbh]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JohnBE @ Jan 5 2009, 01:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (An Tarbh @ Jan 5 2009, 06:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

ROG should be fit for the Sale game according to Munster so there go any chances of Keatley or Humphreys getting a start. Even with a dodgy hamstring I'm sure Kidney would still look to start him. Still though on form he like O'Driscoll don't deserve to be there but we all know that's never gonna happen[/b]

sorry to double post but this is the unfortunate reality... I think O'Gara should start for the big games..England Wales Frances and then play Humphrey's for Italy and Keatley for Scotland.. however I can very easily see O'Gara start every game and get subbed off in the 78th minute like what they used to do with david humphreys.. he'd barely kick a ball
[/b][/quote]

was worse for Wallace at least Humphreys was given a chance to change the game when he was there, certainly in 2000 he came off the bench and contributed nicely in the Scottish and French wins that year, it's easy doing though when there's little between the players but for Wallace the only internation time he got at 10 was when we were 20+ points ahead of England at Croker.

The other worrying thing this season has been the insistence of McGahan of playing Hayes for 80 minutes whenever he starts, he's still so crucial to Ireland as Buckley doesn't seem to be amounting to much and it's hard to see Ross getting a look in so why play him for 80 mins on Saturday when the game was over by 50 mins.

 

[JohnBE]

what amazed me more was seeing him take off buckley in a game.. whats the point?

and atlest with O'Gara he could have 4 years left.. COULD.. 2-3 anyway.. but this has to be big john hayes' final season.. I'm a huge fan of hayes, he's been an excellent player but he really isn't the player he was.. we desperately need a replacement

 

[danny]

Hayes is exactly the same player he has always been. A fat, useless, lard-assed waste of space. If that excuse for a rugby player goes on this Lions tour I will pawn in my tickets.

 

[cyRil]

Danny has just earned Rep of the Week. So true!!

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (An Tarbh @ Jan 5 2009, 01:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

....and it's hard to see Ross getting a look in so why play him for 80 mins on Saturday when the game was over by 50 mins.[/b]

I know this is getting slightly off topic but in one of the Sunday papers (either the Sindo or the Times) it was mentioned that Ross was out of contract at the end of the season. In the same piece, Ross said that he'd love to play for Ireland but was frustrated at missing out on training sessions with the national team due to a dispute between the IRFU and the Premiership players association over player release.

Putting 2 and 2 together (and getting 5) I think Ross may be angling for a move to one of the Irish provinces. Given Ulster's investment in BJ Botha, he won't end up there. Connacht would be a step backwards for him. Leinster could make a move for him if they ship out Stephen Knoop and Ronan McCormack. Tony McGahan doesn't seem to trust Tony Buckley so could Ross be brought back into the Munster setup to compete with and subsequently take over from John Hayes?

 

[JohnBE]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (danny @ Jan 5 2009, 07:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Hayes is exactly the same player he has always been. A fat, useless, lard-assed waste of space. If that excuse for a rugby player goes on this Lions tour I will pawn in my tickets.[/b]

what a stupidly ignorant thing to say

 

[danny]

look at the facts, his only plus points are he is a good lifter. His bad points are he`s slow,a poor scrummager,has poor hands, bad workrate and poor fitness

 

[MunsterMan]

Bad work rate and fitness? Ridiculous. He is an average scrummager but makes up for it with his huge work rate. He regularly plays 80mins even at his advanced age for a Munster player. In the 2007 6nations he came off for the last 5 or so against England when we were 25 points up, and he didn't miss a second of any other game. His fitness in work rate are not in question, however even blindly loyal Munster fans would say that he is an average scrummager, but he is hardly a liability wither.

 

[JohnBE]

I'd agree.. Hayes contributes a lot in open play and in the ruck for both ireland and munster .. great at securing ruck ball

 

[danny]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MunsterMan @ Jan 6 2009, 10:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Bad work rate and fitness? Ridiculous. He is an average scrummager but makes up for it with his huge work rate. He regularly plays 80mins even at his advanced age for a Munster player. In the 2007 6nations he came off for the last 5 or so against England when we were 25 points up, and he didn't miss a second of any other game. His fitness in work rate are not in question, however even blindly loyal Munster fans would say that he is an average scrummager, but he is hardly a liability wither.[/b]

Why is he so fat and slow then?

 

[MunsterMan]

Slow? Yes. Fat? Not by front row standards.