Minnows XV

[Peat]

Tonga Lea'aetoa as your loosehead? Im sorry Melhor but He is RUBBISH at international level. He's not that great in the scrum, gave away alot of silly penalties in his recent outings for Tonga and his fitness sucks. I would definitely have Alisona Taumalolo or Soane Tonga'uiha before Lea'aetoa as starters for Tonga let alone a Minnows XV. These two players ALONE are better than Lae'eatoa by a country mile as well as Sakaria Taulafo of Samoa. Even Graham Dewes of Fiji is a better option IMO.

Man makes a damn fine point here, particularly about Tiny. The list of countries who wouldn't start Tonga'uiha at loosehead if he was available is very, very small imo.

 

[ZeFrenchy]

Of course your assertion that the best scrummaging props are in France, has nothing to do with all of Argentina's best props have always played in France...

I think you're way off about SH props, especially regarding the Crusaders. Crockett and the Franks brothers are two of the best scrummagers in the world, and their performances against the Sharks all international front row highlighted this. To a certain extent Australia has always had a pretty poor front row, but New Zealand and South Africa have consistantly produced props that are up there with the best. I think most would agree that players like Carl Hayman, Tony Woodcock and Kees Meeuws have been considered up there with the best props in their positions in the last decade. There are certainly different interpretations of the scrum between the T14 and the S15, but to say the best front rows are all in Europe is puzzling considering the French keep on buying Super Rugby props. Enjoy Dunning and Tialata.

Poor Frankies are no longer considered as two separate entities... :lol:

 

[Darwin]

Nothing wrong with the Crusaders scrum but overall the level of Super Rugby is below that of Europe. NZ may do fine in the 3N but this will merely be another trap which could open up against other teams. The worlds leading props are in Europe not Super Rugby. Cursaders vs Reds is one thing. I´d like to see it against a side with good props. A case in point being the Top 14 final. Toulouse were hammered at scrumtime by Montpellier who had an Argentine loosehead and a Georgian tighthead prop. Juan Figallo dominated Census Johnson who had been considered amongst the best going around. Figallo is the Pumas´ third choice for the #1 shirt.

As Nickdnz points out, if Europe is full of the world leading props, why do they continue to buy in (apparently inferior) Super Rugby props? Importantly why do many of these props excel in Europe? Even Census Johnson - who was considered a poor scrummaging prop while he played in NZ - is apparently now considered amongst the best going around in Europe! I'm not suggesting Super Rugby props are superior - far from it - but I think you are seriously underrating the quality of Super Rugby props.

The AB's haven't struggled at scrum time since about 2003 (the 2009 Italy test aside, though that was largely attributed to an incompetent ref), and this year the AB's scrum looks like it will be particularly strong. I expect the All Blacks scrum will at least gain parity at scrum time with every team they meet this year, and in most cases will actually dominate at scrum time. Last time the AB's played France (2009 EOYT) it was suggested that France would destroy the AB's scrum. France had the dominant scrum for about 10-15 minutes, then the All Blacks scrum started to dominate, and continued to for the rest of the game. Such was the AB's scrum dominance, Jerome Kaino scored what was basically a push-over try when New Zealand pushed France off there own ball from a French defensive 5m scrum - so much for a superior French scrum! As an AB's supporter there are many things that I worry could potentially be weaknesses going into the RWC: the lineout, McCaw's form, McCaw's backup, Carter's backup, SBW's offloading, Nonu's shoulder charging, Weepu's fitness/fatness, Colin Slade's jaw/goal-kicking, Muliaina's form, Andy Ellis.....the AB's scrum is one of the only things I don't worry about!

 

[formerlyfastwing]

Weepu's fitness/fatness

that made me laugh

 

[Aedaphon]

I'd agree that the European tournaments probably have a higher level of scrummaging on average compared to Super 15, but that means nothing when it comes to international level. The AB's have an enormous/ enormously solid scrum.... Australia however might suffer from their lack of depth/players in the front row.

Also, at least the ABs don't have to worry about back three choices. A freak gasoline fight accident could kill their top 5 choices and they'd still have a solid backline.

 

[nickdnz]

Poor Frankies are no longer considered as two separate entities... :lol:

Haha, in a funny way, they're not always viewed as individuals. I think most people would agree that Owen Franks is the slightly better player, but both of them play the game almost exactly the same. They both make big hits (often clashing heads), both are good scrummagers, both are the two strongest All Blacks and both grow the same beards. They are pretty much just reffered to as the Franks brothers by most (although I'd pick only Owen Franks to start).

 

[Melhor Time]

nickdnz

Of course your assertion that the best scrummaging props are in France, has nothing to do with all of Argentina's best props have always played in France...

Argentina is strong in this area, for sure. But I am not saying France is best because of where Pumas play. In my view the best loosehead in England is Marcos Ayerza who plays for Argentina and the best tighthead is Castrogiovanni who plays for Italy. Argentina excels in the area and the players are in high demand. Guillermo Roan is going to play for London Wasps in his first pro deal. Hardly a guy with rugby under his belt like Dunning, etc. No experience whatsoever yet a multiple time Heineken Cup and English Champion have signed him for the new season. Its a similar story.. look at Mauricio Guidone who is off to Mont de Marsan and Matías Narváez who is going to play for Beziers in the Pro d2. Francisco Nahuel Tetaz Chaparro is to play for Stade Français Maximillano Bustos will play for Montpellier. All three hookers from Los Pampas XV are Europe bound too. Agustín Creevy will play for Montpellier, Matias Corteze for Gloucester and Sebastián Suárez for Aurillac.

These are not regular international players. At most two will be at the World Cup. All have secured contracts for the new season. There are loads of Argentine props in France, some not so good like Juan Orlandi of Racing Metro and Pablo Henn of Brive. These guys are like Dunning not like Scelzo. The point is that Argentina produce the goods in the frontrow. All of the frontrowers from the Vodacom Cup have secured contracts in France or England.

I think you're way off about SH props, especially regarding the Crusaders. Crockett and the Franks brothers are two of the best scrummagers in the world, and their performances against the Sharks all international front row highlighted this.

The Crusaders are not bad, I never said so nor implied this at all. The Sharks are a solid frontrow, really good in fact. But the Stormers... no.. Cheetahs.. no. Lions.. no. Bulls... good but not great like they were better previously. This is what I am saying. Overall the level is not so great despite some being very good.

To a certain extent Australia has always had a pretty poor front row, but New Zealand and South Africa have consistantly produced props that are up there with the best.

Lets not waste time. Australia in the scrum are absolute garbage. Benn Robinson being the only good one I can recall since RWC 1999.

I think most would agree that players like Carl Hayman, Tony Woodcock and Kees Meeuws have been considered up there with the best props in their positions in the last decade.

Sure, but a decade is a long time. Argentina have produced names like Hasan, Roncero, Scelzo, Ayerza, Figallo, Grau, Reggiardo or Mendez. All players are or were regulars because they deserved to be. Its an impressive list of talent to any rugby fan. NZ can´t make a list like this, as you yourself demonstrated. If it were flyhalf or wingers it would be a simple task and much harder for Argentine players in these positions and it is clear why this is the case.

There are certainly different interpretations of the scrum between the T14 and the S15, but to say the best front rows are all in Europe is puzzling considering the French keep on buying Super Rugby props. Enjoy Dunning and Tialata.

Interpretations..... There is only one set of laws, not two. You can see every law here: www.irblaws.com The scrum section is, like all laws, universal. There is no such thing as interpretation of the scrum. Different referee´s focus on different things but the scrums in France and in Super Rugby are not different because of interpretation. France has some terrible referee´s yet when France played in 2010 or 2011 the French scrum was superior to all opponents. Referee´s are a distraction not an interpretation.

I am a coach. I have four props in a squad of 26 players and it is not enough. This is the reality, props are needed. I learned a few years back that teaching the art of scrumaging requires plenty of video time and helping players in Brazil to watch the Top 14 is a lot better for them to learn than from watching Super Rugby. If you don´t believe me you are welcoem to come here and see for yourself. You can stay at my house and even play for my team - we are in the first division in the São Paulo State Championship. We lost 20-5 last weekend and play again in 2 weeks.

Darwin_23

France has 14 top level sides, Italy 2, Scotland 2, Ireland 4, Wales 4 and England 12. Add them together and there are a lot more teams than there are playing Super Rugby. Teams need at least 2 players per position. With props a teams roster will need five props are a bare minimum. Obviously there is a shortage and this explains the signings of some players like Dunning. He asint there for quality and Biarritz have far better players without him, such as Fabien Barcella, Eduard Coetzee and Sylvian Marconnet. Ex Crusaders prop, Campbell Johnson plays for the club but not so often.

I think you are seriously underrating the quality of Super Rugby props

Considering it is five teams per country and they are the worlds top three the standard is actually really poor in Super Rugby. There are some great players, but also many who are not so good at all. There is simply better quality in France.

NZ are ***le favorites. They should win, thats my opinion. But I have serious doubts. The scrum being one of them. The Crusaders pushing back the Reds and Stormers is one thing. Doing that against France is another altogether and seeing the Crusaders scrum dominate can be misleading as the opposition is not always of the same standard. The Reds are champions but have a rubbish frontrow. Far better frontrows in Saracens, Leicester, Toulouse and Montpellier from the English and French Finals. Good props in Ireland, Scotland and even Wales now too. If NZ think they have a great scrum based on Super Rugby, think again. You need to be careful and face actual good opponents. Fiji.. no. Australia...no. South Africa´s third strongers... no. Not hard to see that NZ will enter the RWC without facing elite frontrow opponents. A false sense of security springs to mind. Be careful. France, England and Argentina are all going to be much tougher in this area.

The age of the players is a major concern but strangely at prop, where age is usually a bonus, NZ is quite young.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Good props in Ireland, Scotland and even Wales now too.

I lol'd.


Aslo, the team you posted earlier in the thread would get spanked by the All Blacks and more than likely would be beaten by any of the top 5.

 

[ranger]

GIFSoup

LOL.

It seems like this happens every year. The All Blacks scrum is always called out as weaker than their NH counterparts, and no amount of dominance seems to put that rumour to rest. Its really quite odd.. Wasn't it the french who were being slaughtered so ruthlessly by the All Blacks scrum a few years ago that one of the props feigned injury and the game reverted to non contested scrums?

 

[Darwin]

NZ are ***le favorites. They should win, thats my opinion. But I have serious doubts. The scrum being one of them. The Crusaders pushing back the Reds and Stormers is one thing. Doing that against France is another altogether and seeing the Crusaders scrum dominate can be misleading as the opposition is not always of the same standard. The Reds are champions but have a rubbish frontrow. Far better frontrows in Saracens, Leicester, Toulouse and Montpellier from the English and French Finals. Good props in Ireland, Scotland and even Wales now too. If NZ think they have a great scrum based on Super Rugby, think again. You need to be careful and face actual good opponents. Fiji.. no. Australia...no. South Africa´s third strongers... no. Not hard to see that NZ will enter the RWC without facing elite frontrow opponents. A false sense of security springs to mind. Be careful. France, England and Argentina are all going to be much tougher in this area.

The age of the players is a major concern but strangely at prop, where age is usually a bonus, NZ is quite young.

NZ don't think they have a great front row based on Super Rugby. NZer's think they have a good front row based on the fact they haven't really been beaten at scrum time in tests since about 2003, and this years scrum looks like it will be as strong (if not stronger) than ever. What exactly has changed that they are suddenly going to struggle at scrum time? Ranger has kindly included a video of last time the AB's encountered the mighty French scrum (interestingly, the AB's tight-head prop is apparently going to get 'murdered' in the scrum in France next year too!) :lol:

 

[TRF_Olyy]

GIFSoup

LOL.

It seems like this happens every year. The All Blacks scrum is always called out as weaker than their NH counterparts, and no amount of dominance seems to put that rumour to rest. Its really quite odd.. Wasn't it the french who were being slaughtered so ruthlessly by the All Blacks scrum a few years ago that one of the props feigned injury and the game reverted to non contested scrums?

Have you got any gifs of Tony "apparently the best loosehead in the world" Woodcock getting reemed by a just-out-of-his-teens Dan Cole?

 

[Melhor Time]

I lol'd.


Aslo, the team you posted earlier in the thread would get spanked by the All Blacks and more than likely would be beaten by any of the top 5.

Healy and Ross are a massive improvement on Hayes and Horan who were never up to it in the scrum. Corrigan was shocking too.

Which side were you speaking of, btw... the Arg - Ita - Sco one I presume....