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Boggle

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Ok I finally figured it out, I finally get why -everyone- from south africa is constantly emmigrating to Australia (apart from it being exactly like SA in terms of climate minus the record breaking crime stats).

Minimum wages.

Honestly, got this from BusinessTech this morning (apparently these are the minimum wages for each country listed) and can I just say, an Australian on minimum wage makes more than I (currently) do at a reasonably well paying job, hell that's more than a new ENGINEER would make over here per month, meaning someone who's just popped out of TUKS with a degree after 5 years of studying their asses off...

All I can imagine is you guys have a really expensive lifestyle ?

Does everything there cost like 10 times more or something ?


I relly need to move.

source : http://businesstech.co.za/news/international/31803/minimum-wages-around-the-world/
[h=3]Top 12[/h][TABLE="width: 100%"]
<TBODY>[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #cccccc"]Country[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #cccccc"]Per day (local currency)
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #cccccc"]Per week (local currency)
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #cccccc"]Per month (local currency)
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #cccccc"]Per year (local currency)
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #cccccc"]Per year (US$)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Australia[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]606.40[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]31532.80[/TD]
[TD]32680.59[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Luxembourg[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]1801.49[/TD]
[TD]21617.88[/TD]
[TD]28872.84[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Switzerland[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]2200.00[/TD]
[TD]26400.00[/TD]
[TD]28645.85[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ireland[/TD]
[TD]8.65[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]17992.00[/TD]
[TD]24030.12[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]New Zealand[/TD]
[TD]13.50[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]28080.00[/TD]
[TD]23890.46[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Belgium[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]1472.40[/TD]
[TD]17668.80[/TD]
[TD]23598.45[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Netherlands[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]333.85[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]17360.20[/TD]
[TD]23200.17[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]France[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]1425.67[/TD]
[TD]17108.04[/TD]
[TD]22849.50[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]United Kingdom[/TD]
[TD]6.19[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]12875.20[/TD]
[TD]19977.16[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]San Marino[/TD]
[TD]7.04[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]14643.20[/TD]
[TD]19557.46[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Canada[/TD]
[TD]9.27[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]19281.60[/TD]
[TD]19273.89[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]United States[/TD]
[TD]7.25[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]15080.00[/TD]
[TD]15080.00[/TD]
[/TR]
</TBODY>[/TABLE]
 
Yeah that's pretty crazy for a minimum wage. I want to move off as well but my wife is being stubborn. Probably for the best as i wouldn't be able to deal with the Aussie accent.
 
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Living costs in Australia are a fair bit higher than some other places (especially in the big cities), but in general the increased wages more than compensate for this. It is one of the main reasons why over 50,000 Kiwi's moved across the Tasman to Australia in the last year (myself included....).
 
Yeah well NZ seem to be no slouches in the minimum wages department either.

Let me give an example of what minimum wage is in SA (they do quickly cover it if you follow the link I posted as well).

A farm worker now earns a minimum wage of R1376 per month that's 150.4 AUD per month, if you work retail here (lackey on the floor offering help to the patrons, the kinda stuff kids do sometimes straight after school during a break year) you get about R6000 per month, that's 656 AUD....

Australian minimum wage per week is about what most people make in retail here a month, good lawd.

What's the taxation over there, do you instantly fall into a tax bracket even on minimum wage ?
Is petrol like 5 AUD a litre ?
Do you have Private health insurance or is it national like the UK ?
how much is rent ?

I need to know because for heavens sake, it might be worth the risk to start looking for a job over there.
 
I have just done a quick comparison in terms of costs of living between Brisbane (where I live), and Durban (the first South African city that came to mind).
See: http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-livin...ountry2=Australia&city1=Durban&city2=Brisbane

Based on that the costs of living in Brisbane aren't just a bit higher, they are sustainability higher. For example the cost of renting is 259% higher in Brisbane than in Durban. Overall it suggests the cost of living in Brisbane is almost 3 times as much as in Durban (assuming you are renting..), so this needs to be taken into account when comparing wages.

The taxation brackets in Australia are as follows (the first $18,200 are tax free as you see):

Petrol is about $1.30 AUD per litre at the moment. A cup of coffee at the cafe costs about $3.50. Health insurance is similar to that in the UK, but private health insurance is becoming a bit more common.

At the moment I'm paying $410 per week for rent for a three bedroom house (with a nice backyard) about 8km away from the centre of Brisbane. I'm sure (based on the comparison above) that is a lot more than you will be paying in South Africa! Our rent isn't overly expensive either - if we were living closer to town it would be higher, and if we lived in somewhere like Sydney it would be substantially higher again.
 
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Yeah it seems renting is pretty expensive over there.

I basically live in Centurion CBD (although Centurion is much more of a residential business district with it being nowhere near the capacity of say Johburg, which is a lot more expensive as I gather) in a nice enough area, renting a 2 bedroom townhouse with a small front and back yard and double garage, paying around R6000 per month, which is about 656 AUD a month, so you seem to be paying $ 1000 more than I am per month for living arangements, however that's for a house, if you were to rent a nice 3 bedroom house with a big back yard here it would probably be around R 10 000 or more.

Well that settles it I guess, you guys are paying through your noses for property :p

EDIT:

Also, food seems to be dirt cheap here, I laughed at your restaurant prices, that's ridiculous, also R45 for a draught ? HA !

I think at the end of the day if you take the increased wages in account purchasing parity is probably more or less reached, you guys might still be a bit better off in the long run though.
 
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Boggle said:
Yeah it seems renting is pretty expensive over there.

I basically live in Centurion CBD (although Centurion is much more of a residential business district with it being nowhere near the capacity of say Johburg, which is a lot more expensive as I gather) in a nice enough area, renting a 2 bedroom townhouse with a small front and back yard and double garage, paying around R6000 per month, which is about 656 AUD a month, so you seem to be paying $ 1000 more than I am per month for living arangements, however that's for a house, if you were to rent a nice 3 bedroom house with a big back yard here it would probably be around R 10 000 or more.

Well that settles it I guess, you guys are paying through your noses for property :p

EDIT:

Also, food seems to be dirt cheap here, I laughed at your restaurant prices, that's ridiculous, also R45 for a draught ? HA !

I think at the end of the day if you take the increased wages in account purchasing parity is probably more or less reached, you guys might still be a bit better off in the long run though.
Click to expand...

Yep, the difference in rent seems pretty extreme. Home owners (without a mortgage) are obviously better off in Australia.

I never realised how expensive food is here until I went to India recently - there I could get a good meal out for the equivalent of $1 AUD!

Beer is ridicolusly expensive here (especially at the pub) - it was notably cheaper in New Zealand.
 
Don't come over here to earn minimum wage. One key side effect to having decent wages is unaffordable housing. So yea, come over here once you have all the qualifications you want for a job and such.

But yea australia is the gambling capital of the world so we have a fair bit of disposable income which does push beer prices up, along with the inelastic demand. A carton of decent beer will set you back $50AUD.
 
Even if someone in SA could achieve a similar standard of living to someone in Aus while earning less the big thing to consider is you'll have more leverage in terms of off shore investments and the Aus $ will get you further when it comes to travelling if that's a consideration for you.
 
Yeah no obviously I wouldn't go over to earn a minimum wage, I work in the insurance industry, so I'm not exactly sure what they make over there, but it ought to be more.

actually, I should go read up on what service consultants or intermediaries make over there, just for interest sake.
 
Nice, I'm doing a degree in finance right now so maybe in a year could give you more details :D

But yea this is a big job finding site if you want to check out the market: http://www.seek.com.au/

Or there are probably good websites online that give you a rough guide. The ABS says the average worker in the insurance industry is on $1400 a week. http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected]/mf/6306.0

(But it would largely vary between what people's experiance/qualifications are)
 
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I was over in Brisbane for the month of December, so maybe I can offer some insight.

Coming in with Rands I found that stuff is 3 to 4 times more expensive (using an exchange rate I got of R9 = $1). For example $4 for a loaf of bread = R36 converted. A loaf in SA is roughly R10. 36/10 = 3.6 .

That is one example, but it seemed pretty consistent. Booze and smokes are a whole different story though $$$. $40 for a 6-pack = R360!!! Needless to say I didn't buy a single drink while I was there. Their beer is weaker too. 4% alc is "full strength" if I remember correctly.

Chances are you'll earn between $55k to $60k in an entry level job, with at least a degree of some sort. You get higher and lower of course, I'm generalising for arguments sake.
What is difficult to do is to compare how far that will get you. Cars are cheaper comparatively. You can get a nice car for $10k. So if you were earning min wage, 1/3 of your annual earnings. If we use the min wage you gave (1376x12=16512), not sure what car you get for R5504, 1/3 of your annual earnings.

With regards to property, it appears (I was only there for a month!) you can get a nice 2 bedroom place near the CBD for $500 a week ($2000 a month). The trick is not to say $2000 x 9 = R18 000!! OMG LOLZ!! I would say times $2000 x 3.5 = R7000. That would be a fairer reflection comparing how "expensive" it is. So not really much more comparatively when you look at SA.

Fact is AUS$ go further than Rands, anyway you slice it. The only way you'll "lose out", is if you're upper-middle class in SA because you're earning so much more than the general population, you'll be getting the benefits of cheap food prices.

But so what. Why would you want to earn so much more than your fellow citizens, regardless of what you do. Not having that nasty class difference was a breathe of fresh air.

Let me illustrate:

SA Minimum wage: R16512
SA Upper Salary: R1200000

Ratio: 72:1

AUS Minimum wage: $31000
AUS Upper Salary: $250000

Ratio: 8:1

Once again just a rough example, I'm sure most people have heard of the gini coefficient, which is more accurate. Anyway, that is roughly the difference in earnings, and as you know is a huge social problem.

Dude, if you get the chance, GO. It's great in Aussie. Imagine walking through the city CBD at night, no probs at all! I've never done that in my 25 years until I went there. Imagine riding the public bus back home at 2am and then walk 1km to your house, no probs! Imagine jogging 9pm at night, running passed thick bushes and trees, no worries man! My wife rode on a train for the first time and she is 23 years old (you know how public trains are in SA).

You don't realise how backwards SA makes you until you go to a 1st world country. My wife's parents stay next to a green belt and they leave their back doors open so the dogs can go in and out the house. It drove me insane the first few nights knowing that not everything is closed, locked and burglar proofed. I had to snap myself out of it a few times.
The neighbours went away for the weekend and just left their car in the driveway, no gates, nothing. Seemed odd at first but it's normal here, and the more you think about it should be the norm.

The one night at about 10pm I went to fetch my phone from my mother-in-laws car. I open the door leading into it from the kitchen and noticed the garage door is still open, and they have no gate for their driveway. The only light was a faint light from the street light. My first reaction, drop down to see if I can see anybody's feet hiding behind the car. Lol. I had to laugh at myself.

I could go on and on. Fact is you live better, earn more and feel safe.
 
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yeah the quality of living thing is probably even a bigger factor than the money to be honest, I absolutely cannot imagine living without a 6 foot wall around my home with no gate or burglar proof windows or any sort of decent security, I've just been through too much crap over here for my brain to understand that in a normal first wolrd country you shouldn't have to worry for your life every now and then from within the confines of your own home.

I've been taken at gunpoint through my own house, and we've quite literally been robbed so much I've pretty much lost count (I am not even joking), even without an increase in pay I would relish that sense of security more than anything in the world.
 
Wow thats pretty crazy (the whole security issue over there), but yea those things are pretty minimal issues here. Everyone I know who has moved from SA to perth says they like it. But a lot of the finance jobs are over east (i think), so Brisbane would be the next best place to check out.

If you need any info or advice let us know on here.
 
What is youth unemployment in Oz like? In most Western European and North American areas that have high minimum wages the usual trade off is higher unemployment especially in younger age brackets.
 
Steve-o said:
I was over in Brisbane for the month of December, so maybe I can offer some insight.

Coming in with Rands I found that stuff is 3 to 4 times more expensive (using an exchange rate I got of R9 = $1). For example $4 for a loaf of bread = R36 converted. A loaf in SA is roughly R10. 36/10 = 3.6 .

That is one example, but it seemed pretty consistent. Booze and smokes are a whole different story though $$$. $40 for a 6-pack = R360!!! Needless to say I didn't buy a single drink while I was there. Their beer is weaker too. 4% alc is "full strength" if I remember correctly.

Chances are you'll earn between $55k to $60k in an entry level job, with at least a degree of some sort. You get higher and lower of course, I'm generalising for arguments sake.
What is difficult to do is to compare how far that will get you. Cars are cheaper comparatively. You can get a nice car for $10k. So if you were earning min wage, 1/3 of your annual earnings. If we use the min wage you gave (1376x12=16512), not sure what car you get for R5504, 1/3 of your annual earnings.

With regards to property, it appears (I was only there for a month!) you can get a nice 2 bedroom place near the CBD for $500 a week ($2000 a month). The trick is not to say $2000 x 9 = R18 000!! OMG LOLZ!! I would say times $2000 x 3.5 = R7000. That would be a fairer reflection comparing how "expensive" it is. So not really much more comparatively when you look at SA.

Fact is AUS$ go further than Rands, anyway you slice it. The only way you'll "lose out", is if you're upper-middle class in SA because you're earning so much more than the general population, you'll be getting the benefits of cheap food prices.

But so what. Why would you want to earn so much more than your fellow citizens, regardless of what you do. Not having that nasty class difference was a breathe of fresh air.

Let me illustrate:

SA Minimum wage: R16512
SA Upper Salary: R1200000

Ratio: 72:1

AUS Minimum wage: $31000
AUS Upper Salary: $250000

Ratio: 8:1

Once again just a rough example, I'm sure most people have heard of the gini coefficient, which is more accurate. Anyway, that is roughly the difference in earnings, and as you know is a huge social problem.

Dude, if you get the chance, GO. It's great in Aussie. Imagine walking through the city CBD at night, no probs at all! I've never done that in my 25 years until I went there. Imagine riding the public bus back home at 2am and then walk 1km to your house, no probs! Imagine jogging 9pm at night, running passed thick bushes and trees, no worries man! My wife rode on a train for the first time and she is 23 years old (you know how public trains are in SA).

You don't realise how backwards SA makes you until you go to a 1st world country. My wife's parents stay next to a green belt and they leave their back doors open so the dogs can go in and out the house. It drove me insane the first few nights knowing that not everything is closed, locked and burglar proofed. I had to snap myself out of it a few times.
The neighbours went away for the weekend and just left their car in the driveway, no gates, nothing. Seemed odd at first but it's normal here, and the more you think about it should be the norm.

The one night at about 10pm I went to fetch my phone from my mother-in-laws car. I open the door leading into it from the kitchen and noticed the garage door is still open, and they have no gate for their driveway. The only light was a faint light from the street light. My first reaction, drop down to see if I can see anybody's feet hiding behind the car. Lol. I had to laugh at myself.

I could go on and on. Fact is you live better, earn more and feel safe.
Click to expand...

Excellent post - it is great to get a perspective from someone who has lived for a time in both countries.

The difference between the social 'classes' was something I was going to comment on, but you covered it really well. Coming from New Zealand (or Australia) I found it very difficult to fully comprehend this difference until I traveled through South America and India. In New Zealand/Australia there is not really a class system at all - there is the odd snobbish rich prick, but everyone else is more or less the same.

Little Guy said:
What is youth unemployment in Oz like? In most Western European and North American areas that have high minimum wages the usual trade off is higher unemployment especially in younger age brackets.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what the youth unemployment is like, but the unemployment level of the general population is pretty low (5.4% - and that is with tens of thousands of immigrants arriving each year to take all the jobs!). Obviously the youth rate will be a bit higher, but I don't think it is a major issue.

TNT88 said:
Wow thats pretty crazy (the whole security issue over there), but yea those things are pretty minimal issues here. Everyone I know who has moved from SA to perth says they like it. But a lot of the finance jobs are over east (i think), so Brisbane would be the next best place to check out.

If you need any info or advice let us know on here.
Click to expand...

From my perspective Brisbane is a great place to live, as it is very much like New Zealand (probably as it is full of Kiwi's....). I would recommend coming over if you got the chance (the weather is pretty good too..). The only downside to living in Australia is the crap rugby team ;) New Zealand is a great place to live too - there are a lot of South African ex-pats living on the North Shore in Auckland!
 
TNT88 said:
Don't come over here to earn minimum wage. One key side effect to having decent wages is unaffordable housing. So yea, come over here once you have all the qualifications you want for a job and such.

But yea australia is the gambling capital of the world so we have a fair bit of disposable income which does push beer prices up, along with the inelastic demand. A carton of decent beer will set you back $50AUD.
Click to expand...

$30 for a block of VB! Ha ha no I don't drink that ****.

But yeah Australia is now a pretty expensive country to live in. in 1998 in Perth you could get a house & land package for $79k (clarkson), now you would struggle to buy a place for under $350k. House prices have quadrupled, whilst wages have stagnated.
 
So I've been chatting to a girl at my dance studio who used to live in Brisbane as well for close to something like a decade.

Seems like a wonderful city, I really need to go visit at some point, I was planning on saving up for a trip to New York, but perhaps I should do Australia, although it would seem it's even more expensive to visit than NY.

As soon as my engineering buddy is done with his masters he should be making a decent salary, methinks we'll save up for a year and pop on over, I've only ever been to the UAE and Mozambique, would love to do some real travelling for a change :p
 
My ex-girlfriend (who is South African coincidentally) just moved to Perth for this summer, where she'll be earning a yearly salary (though she'll only have been there 6 months, so get half of that) of $62,000 in retail, twice as much as she earns here. It's mental. Damn Perth, I miss her.
 
The minimum wages for Belgium are a bit lower. But due to our awesome social security you pay lesser taxes and you receive much more benefits. Unfortunately the cost of living is quiet high ( accommodation wise). When I was working in NZ I earned a bit more then the min wage but every additional hour you do after your 40 h week contract gets taxed even more. Suicide.
 

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