Life after Eddie …

[Which Tyler]

Maybe those conversations with Robertson happened. Maybe he ruled himself out as he's been warmed up for the ABs. We just don't know.

Entirely possible - though it seems unlikely if they haven't done so with their alleged first choice option

The knee jerk wasn't sacking Jones, but extending his contract and for so long. That's the real reason we're in this mess.

Isn't 4 years (or at least, "until after the RWC" pretty standard for an international head coach? And out-performing expectations at a RWC is alsway going to provide an incumbent with a pretty strong hand in negotiations.
I'm just not sure that counts as a knee-jerk* even if it was wrong (in hindsight for some, foresight for others)

*certainly not knee-jerk in comparison to sacking someone as a result of 1 international window.

 

[Geordie]

I think we need to get a real good scrum coach in ....is Adam Jones available?? Like he'd coach England lol.

But the impacts hes had on some of the front rowers at Quins have been impressive. We need a good coach to get the likes of Sinckler back in form.

Vesty would be a good attack coach...but how much would he cost.

We've alredy signed a defence coach...should he not be given a chance?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

We've alredy signed a defence coach...should he not be given a chance?

Very EJ signing, though, he might move on: Aussie league guy with zero Union coaching (or playing) experience outside of 1 season as a "kicking consultant" with Sale 5 years ago,
League guys do often make very good defence coaches, but I wouldn't throw them straight into international no matter how much League experience they have

Gotta imagine whoever comes in will want to have their own assistant (if that's possible mid-season)

 

[ncurd]

Isn't 4 years (or at least, "until after the RWC" pretty standard for an international head coach? And out-performing expectations at a RWC is alsway going to provide an incumbent with a pretty strong hand in negotiations.
I'm just not sure that counts as a knee-jerk* even if it was wrong (in hindsight for some, foresight for others)

*certainly not knee-jerk in comparison to sacking someone as a result of 1 international window.

Isn't the real problem it was all signed April 2018 (1.5 years before the 2019 word cup) to 2021

Eddie Jones agrees contract extension to coach England's rugby team until August 2021

"I never take my role as England head coach for granted and did not presume I would be asked to stay on, but, once the conversations started very recently, it was not a difficult decision to make"

www.mirror.co.uk

It not madness he got a contract to 2023 although the fact that was signed in 2020 post six nations when we were already stuck with him for another year didn't help.

Although I'd definitely be putting in break clause with any new coach for a less than 50% win rate or bottom half of 6 nations.

 

[Which Tyler]

Isn't the real problem it was all signed April 2018 (1.5 years before the 2019 word cup) to 2021

Fair enough, I couldn't find anything.
My recollection was that pre-RWC19 he signed a contract taking him to September 2020, but stepping into a more DoR role for the last year, grooming his replacement, but a straight 4 year deal post RWC19.
Happy to be corrected**.

It not madness he got a contract to 2023 although the fact that was signed in 2020 post six nations when we were already stuck with him for another year didn't help.

Meh, at that point, he'd just reached the RWC final, and gone 3-0-1 in the truncated 6N, and was sitting there with a win ratio of 77%. Based on results it was a no-brainer to extend through 2023. Based on reputation from elsewhere it was a bit of a gamble.

Although I'd definitely be putting in break clause with any new coach for a less than 50% win rate or bottom half of 6 nations.

Same here; though I wonder how many international calibre coaches would be willing to sign that?
I certainly think that 2 successive years of <50% win ratio would be a viable trigger, given how often that's happened*



*Twice ever for as far back as I've looked, 1984/5 and 2021/2, though Robinson and Johnson both got damned close - Hmmm, actually, make it a <50% win ratio over a rolling 24 month period - which would have seen both of those 2, and Martin Green, removed from the post when they needed to be (1 window early for Green. 1 window early for Robbo. 1 year early for Jonno. When he was for Eddie.)

**ETA: partially corrected

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

AND dangle a big enough carrot in front of Wayne Smith to come over for 1 year.

If he was willing to do it. Smith to support Borthwick through to the RWC would be a great idea.

 

[Scotty]

So either the RFU didnt communicate that they wanted Borthwick post WC so he screwed them and signed a deal ruling himself out of the job. So now have to pay 4 years contract not 1.

Or hae decided he wasnt ready and wanted 4 years as head coach before being England HC...meaning RFU forcing someone for their one shot to early...

 

[Welsh Exile]

Maybe those conversations with Robertson happened. Maybe he ruled himself out as he's been warmed up for the ABs. We just don't know.

Assuming Borthwick gets the gig It's going to be interesting to find out whether he has genuinely been the first choice all along, who else was considered, why they were ruled out and when.

This is true but I find it very hard to believe considering it was only 1 month ago that Robertson said coaching England would be a dream job. He was flashing his knickers like the breakdancing floozy he is. No way has he been given any kind of solid assurances the NZ job is his after the WC and tbh even if it had I think England is to good of a job to turn down and he's said his ambition is to win 2 world cups with 2 different nations so again don't see him turning England down. If England wanted him he's there's. End of story. And as said, they would only have to pay a fraction of what they're reported to have spend on Borthwick.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I could understand paying a million for an experienced, winning international coach. But a million for a guy who has done a couple of seasons at head coach at club level ?
Surely Edwards would be a cheaper/better option even factoring in his extension with Fra. I would think he will will have a clause in his contract if a head coach job came up ?
If the RFU aren't bothered about international experience then the best club coach is Robertson.
Is borthwick that good that seemingly the RFU will pay whatever it takes ? Seems very bizzare

RFU earlier this year "Our finances aren't bad! We're managing them well!"
RFU now....

 

[higgik]

I was reading the Jonathan Agnew piece on the BBC about why the England cricket team are suddenly winning so much when the players have barely changed. One thing he highlighted was that there seems to be a genuine trust in players to go out and play and they won't be dropped for mistakes, where as previously even though it was said actual evidence was players being consistently dropped and brought back. It didn't give them confidence and put them under more pressure to perform.

For me it's one of EJ's failings. He was too ruthless and didn't give players chances to take risks and perform. It's why he was left with a team who would play it safe. It's also reflected in how many players were tried and discarded. Also as others have said he had his favourites. I think he said in 2020 he knew 90% of his world cup squad. That's bad management and reminds me of Capello and Goran-Eriksson when there were undroppable England players who took it easy. Combined you've got new players afraid to make a mistake and older players sitting comfortably. No wonder we saw such poor performances.

Watching the rugby in AI and it seemed that there was a forced togetherness, by walking off pitch together. Struck me as trying to develop bond and trust that should already be there.

 

[McTallshort]

England to confirm Borthwick appointment after talks breakthrough

Twickenham chiefs are finally confident of striking a deal with Leicester to allow Steve Borthwick to become England head coach.

www.standard.co.uk

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Pivac must be raging

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I heard (on GBR ) podcast that apparently Borthwick was signed by the rfu already for June to join up for the WC camp.

 

[Reiser99]

I heard (on GBR ) podcast that apparently Borthwick was signed by the rfu already for June to join up for the WC camp.

Surely that would contradict him signing a 3 year contract last year with Leicester. I know there was talk of the new headcoach shadowing Jones early, but why would they sign Borthwick to join the WC camp after he signed a long term deal with Leicester?

Honestly I reckon Leicester and Borthwick have pulled a fast one on the RFU.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Surely that would contradict him signing a 3 year contract last year with Leicester. I know there was talk of the new headcoach shadowing Jones early, but why would they sign Borthwick to join the WC camp after he signed a long term deal with Leicester?

Honestly I reckon Leicester and Borthwick have pulled a fast one on the RFU.

Unless he was signed up for the WC camp only?

No idea but that's what Payneo said on the pod.

 

[Which Tyler]

It's not all that infrequent for contracts and heads of agreement to get confused. Either that, or, as Reiser suggests - there's some shenanigans going on

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

It's not all that infrequent for contracts and heads of agreement to get confused. Either that, or, as Reiser suggests - there's some shenanigans going on

Tigers? Shenanigans? Never!

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Courtney Lawes was not consulted over England decision to sack Eddie Jones

Courtney Lawes has revealed he was not consulted by the RFU over the decision and was not aware any players had been

www.theguardian.com

 

[Scotty]

Courtney Lawes was not consulted over England decision to sack Eddie Jones

Courtney Lawes has revealed he was not consulted by the RFU over the decision and was not aware any players had been

www.theguardian.com

'know I'm one of the lucky ones, he didn't give me much stick or anything like that and he was ultimately really good for my career. I know that's not the case for everyone so people may have different opinions but for me, personally, I was sad to see him go.'

This for me says he knew of quite a few issues and how people were treated.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I don't like those articles - they're in bad faith
Just trying to get a headline which will ultimately harm the players reputation with either the union (PLAYER SAYS RFU MADE BAD DECISION) or with future coaches (PLAYER PUBLICLY TRASHES EX-COACH)