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Lessons learned frm the Steinlarger series - All Black perspective

Larksea

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Overall it's been a positive series from an All Black perspective. Winning all 3 tests was the bare minimum requirement doing it using some of the great new talent on show in super rugby was an added bonus and finishing the series in style with a record result was the icing on the cake. Winning that tight game when the Irish threw everything at the AB's was just as important, finding a way to win a game the AB's probably should have lost will be a good experience for the new guys. It's been a mark of the AB's in particular since just after the 2007 world cup they seem to be good at finding a way to come out on top in the 50/50 games and retaining that trait is going to be important for keeping the silverware they have got.

First point i think is the style of play under the new coaching. I think you can see the influence of foster in particular in the way the back line is operating, also is the impact of SWB at 12 rather than Nonu. Nonu is a tricky customer but SBW has a few more skills he brings to the table and maybe even more effective at sucking in defenders than Nonu, I think Sonny's defense is better as well, his strong point is his urgency getting back into the line after he's made a tackle and that is one of Nonu's major flaws so the gap in that area is vast. And we saw his kicking game come into action as well.

Defense is still very good, Henry really set the example way back when he became AB coach and really pioneered the modern defense patterns used these days by a lot of teams. It's really just a case of maintaining that structure and attitude and adapting it for the players being used.

Going through the ranks

Front row: Nothing really to comment on here, same coach (Cron) and same players for the most part, lineouts were very god at times so throwing/lifting was good from the fatties. if anything 5 props in the squad is not required, maybe it was because there is not a 2nd prop who is a genuine option for both sides. I think they need to find one to add room for an extra halfback or hooker or maybe loose forward (loosies maybe the most injury prone positions?)

Locks: Retalick has been a great find, solid debut very good in the next game and added some impact off the bench in the final test. Almost a ready made world class test lock! Some signs that Romano may hop Williams in the pecking order, maybe not as good in the air but a good ball carrier and good at the ruck/maul. Whitelock secures his spot as the #1 lock. Hoeata and a few others will really be putting the pressure on Romano and Williams for selection.

Lose forwards: maybe the area that has the most going on, obviously initially all the talk was over who would replace kaino. We've not found an answer to that question with Vito, Thomson and Messam getting one test each. That's not enough to draw a conclusion on but with the next Selection we may see the first cut. Of those Messam I think had the greatest impact and did the best job of adding the Physicality that was a big part of Kaino's game. Also showed that he can do some good work at the lineout with 2 takes some good lifting and he got himself up and in the way of the irish at times - enough for a pass mark in that area which is seen as his weakness compared to Thomson and Vito. The big part of Messams game where he outdid the others was his tackling. Stopping the opposition momentum and making tackles that create turnovers or give the defense momentum. I was hoping vito would be next in the pecking order but of the three he looked the least effective. Rugby Championship selection is going to be very interesting in this area unless one of these guys is injured. If anything I think Messam should reclaim his spot that I think should have been his for the last year or so anyway.

But the most interesting development in this series that could potentially affect all three positions is the emergence of Sam Cane. This guy has been under the watchful eye of Ian Foster for i think at least three years now and he worked hard to secure his services at the chiefs and "foster" him into professional rugby and it seems he had good reason too. he looks every bit a test player from his first touch of the ball. So what does that mean? While I think it is Richie McCaw's ticket to number 6. To prolong his carrier and make sure we still have lots of speed in the back row McCaw should make way for Cane at 7 and Captain the team from 6 when Read returns. And Messam should be first backup with his ability to cover 6,8 and 7 in a pinch. maybe look to bring in Luke Braid or Brad Shields to get some experience before 2015. But from the sounds Hansen is making he is instead going to use Cane as McCaw's backup to take some workload off him.

Either way I think Cane needs to be eased into test football the same way he is being eased into super rugby for the chiefs sharing the #7 duties with Latimer

9: Smith is now confirmed as #1 halfback. Question marks over weepu but I guess someone needs to lead the Haka.

10: Carter is still the best 10 in the world but for the first time ever we have a number of genuine options. In the past we had Carter then Donald then really nothing. now we got Carter, Cruden, Barrett and Slade - great depth. I think over time Barrett is going to keep improving and put a lot of pressure on the others.

midfield: pretty much sorted, SBW and Smith are a great combination, Smith as good as ever and SBW growing all the time and when Nonu does get his chance it will be worth the price at the gate just for that. he has a history of bouncing back when he's under selection pressure. Some nice dry black powder saved for the Rugby Championship.

Wings: A real headache position now, Kahui is out for the rest of this year. Savea was brilliant one game but showed he's maybe not ready for the big games yet in his 2nd. Guildford and Gear were solid. Ben Smith I think was very good. I would also look at Ellison as someone who's worth a look. Still questions over future selection. Jane will be back, Smith should stay so who out of Gear, Savea and Guildford gets to stay. It may come down to Savea vs. Gear with Guildford being ok to cover 14 as well. I think Savea just needs more time, he's kinda ideal with an eye on 2015. maybe give him a run in the championship, keep him in the squad, project for foster. But he has a lot of work to do, I think 2011 showed that come world cup time defense and accuracy is far more important than Lomu like size and power or attacking x-factor, which is what made Kahui the #1 choice over the likes of Gear, Guildford and Sivivatu

fullback: Dagg is still obviously the man, he's not quite been at his best but I think that may just be from the fact he does not have Jane on one side and Kahui on the other beside him. Those three in combination I think are best in the world
 
Excellent analysis Lark.

You are right about one thing with SBW, his kicking game is already at least equal to that of Nonu's. Which granted, isn't really hard for a pro-footballer. But still.

I'm still concerned about our depth at Hooker. If it were as easy as popping down to K-road for a recruitment drive then we'd be sweet as. But it's not! Hopefully some kids at the Under-20s have put their hands up at the number 2 position.

Loose forwards is tricky situation for selectors. Do you go 6. Messam/Vito/Thomson 7. McCaw 8. Read - with Cane on the becnh; or do you go 6.McCaw 7. Cane 8. Read with Mesam/Vito on the bench. Again, we are not far off world class in depth when it comes to loosies.

Hafback, for sure Aaron Smith is our best halfback (until we see TJ OPerenara "mature" that is). Weepu is by far one of the world's best Haja lkeaders - though I'd rather Hosea leading it anyway :p (if not there's always Keven). Other than that, I think he's good to sub on when we're 20+ points up. :lol:

Completely agree about our 1st 5 situation. Before we'd be shaking our boots to see Donald or Delany see the field. Now we have a maturing Cruden and Barrett ion the wings, and still have the ever solid (albeit oft injured) COlin Slade. For once, I don't miss Nick Evans any more!
 
yeah I dont see a problem with Hooker right now but for 2015 it is an issue. It's unlikely either Hore or Mealamu will be good to go for 2015 and reports are that there will be just two hookers for the Championship. So not room for an understudy.

Maybe next year we will have Perenara selected and Weepu can come on in a traditional Maori warrior dress bare chest and foot, feather in hair to lead the Haka as a non-player :)
 
good post, I agree with most of it. The All Blacks have to put sentiment aside and look towards the future, romano and retallick proved that there's no reason to keep dead wood like ali williams around. Also good to see young talent coming through in the backrow with sam cane. McCaw is still good but he wont be around forever, even at 6 or 8. finding a top class replacement hooker after hore/mealamu.. who is there apart from elliot?

sonny bill is lost to league again which is a shame as he's been immense for the chiefs and ab this year already. a much improved player over last year.
 
Nice analysis. Agree with most of it. Points I will make -

1. Think you're very harsh on Victor Vito. Don't know if you remember or not, but he was subbed very ealry in the second half after getting injured, so had less than 50 minutes of game time. In that 47 minutes he carried the ball as many times as anyother player on the field. Very harsh to say he was the worst. I personally would have him and Messam in my squad and drop Thomson.

2. "In the past we had Carter then Donald then really nothing". I include Donald in that nothing. Agree with you that our depth is now very good though. Slade I don't think is up there with the other three though, but I certainly rate Cruden and Barrett.

3. I also think they're planning on using Cane as a backup for McCaw rather than as a regular starter. I think that may be a big mistake, as I'd much rather see 6. McCaw, 7. Cane, 8. Read.

4. Like someone else mentioned, by the end of this year I want to see Weepu out and Peranara in. I'll take Gear to lead the haka any day.

5. Agree with you on wingers. I'd happily leave out Guildford and take Cory Jane, Israel Dagg, Ben Smith and Hosea Gear and if we have room for another back three take Savea, but 5 in the back three may be a bit much.
 
I dont think Ali is gone burger just yet, for starters in a squad you need a senior lock to analyze opposition line outs and help with the game plan. Almost like part of the coaching team, I think Ali actually fills that sort of role at the AB's. Take him out and put anyone else in and the experience vanishes. I think he will be around for some time yet.

Behind Hika is Dane Coles and Cory Flynn... Unless you include Ruttledge who is Older than mealamu and maybe Hore too. There are a few young hookers coming though I think, just not quite Super level yet. Problem is there are only 5 starting 5 bench hooker positions in super rugby and one major role is taken by a Samoan international, 3-4 are taken by old war hourses who are unlikely to be fit and in form for 2015. not a lot of options left.

I actually think hika is pretty good, importantly he's a very good lineout thrower. He should be being used more, and should have been selected for the WC.

I really like the look of McDonald at the Crusaders. I think he had his breakout performance a few weeks ago. He played almost a whole game and was very good. Good enough I think to start some games ahead of Flynn.

SBW, hard to comment on his future until it's clear. Things were looking like he would stay in NZ with him going so well and the NZRU allowing him to box. But all the cloak and Dagger around his contract negotiations suggest he is going to league after all. if he does he will leave behind a very ****** off NZ public. I'm not sure what to think about that scenario yet. We have a big mid fielder ready made in Robbie Fruen but he's a 13 and needs work on his defense, Kahui can play 12 and actually would be a really exciting combination with smith. Nonu is still around obviously. Crotty is a great prospect but not that Size/presence at 12 that SBW/Nonu have.
 
1. Think you're very harsh on Victor Vito. Don't know if you remember or not, but he was subbed very ealry in the second half after getting injured, so had less than 50 minutes of game time. In that 47 minutes he carried the ball as many times as anyother player on the field. Very harsh to say he was the worst. I personally would have him and Messam in my squad and drop Thomson.

he did carry the ball and make tackles but it was all pretty mundane routine stuff. All the talk about the battle to take over Kaino's job was about the physical stuff, hitting the ball up and smashing people on defense. didn't really see that from Vito.

I'm not the biggest Thomson fan but he did do a lot of good work in that 2nd test. Though it wasn't the physical stuff the coaches were calling for at least he gets around a huge amount of rucks and makes a lot of tackles

You may be right though, either way it's close as it's always been over the last few years of the three of them only two will be selected. Thought this year there would be room for all 3 but Cane came on the scene and took that spot but it could come down to Vito being the main backup for #8 and Messam And Thomson in a selection battle for 6. I've been saying it for weeks. I think McCaw should move to 6 to make way for a younger faster 7. If I were coach it would have been that way from game 1 in this series. because for the first time in quite a while we have genuine options at 7 and it just so happens that Cane has come out as a player of great quality in this series, it should make that move even easier.

Hansen just seems very anti the idea of McCaw at 6 and it's been like that for a long time. I think behind Closed Doors McCaw is not keen on the idea of moving to 6 which is why it hasn't happened yet.
 
My greatest concern is no longer who will replace Carter and McCaw as I think the new guys have shown they can be replaced, my only real worry now is whether we have a replacement captain.

In that role McCaw is hard to replace.
 
My greatest concern is no longer who will replace Carter and McCaw as I think the new guys have shown they can be replaced, my only real worry now is whether we have a replacement captain.

In that role McCaw is hard to replace.
The next captain will be Kieran Read. No doubt about that for me.
 
if anything 5 props in the squad is not required

Perhaps not, but you are somewhat restricted by Law on that one...

[TEXTAREA]LAW 3.5 SUITABLY TRAINED AND EXPERIENCED PLAYERS IN THE FRONT
ROW
(a) The table below indicates the numbers of suitably trained and experienced players available
for the front row when nominating different numbers of players.
(b) Each player in the front row and any potential replacement(s) must be suitably trained and
experienced.
Number of players Number of suitably trained and
experienced players
15 or less Three players who can play in the front row
16, 17 or 18 Four players who can play in the front row
19, 20, 21 or 22 Five players who can play in the front row
(Union Specific Variations Law 3.14)
22 or 23 Six players who can play in the front row[/TEXTAREA]

IMO, Five props is the minimum any selection panel should be taking into a squad, with three being the minimum legal requirement in the 22.

You really should have specialist cover at both THP and LHP, so that is four props and the fifth prop can be a player that can do both sides of the scrum.

x2 specialist THP
x2 specialist LHP
x1 versatile THP/LHP

The only way I can see that it would be OK to drop the squad to four props would be to have TWO versatile props who could to both sides, or a hooker that could do one or other of the sides, so

x1 specialist THP
x1 specialist LHP
x2 versatile THP/LHP

or

x2 specialist THP
x1 specialist LHP
x1 versatile LHP/THP
plus a hooker who can do LHP*

or

x1 specialist THP
x2 specialist LHP
x1 versatile LHP/THP
plus a hooker who can do THP*


*note, these beasts are a rare commodity at elite level
 
I dont think Ali is gone burger just yet, for starters in a squad you need a senior lock to analyze opposition line outs and help with the game plan. Almost like part of the coaching team, I think Ali actually fills that sort of role at the AB's. Take him out and put anyone else in and the experience vanishes. I think he will be around for some time yet.

Behind Hika is Dane Coles and Cory Flynn... Unless you include Ruttledge who is Older than mealamu and maybe Hore too. There are a few young hookers coming though I think, just not quite Super level yet. Problem is there are only 5 starting 5 bench hooker positions in super rugby and one major role is taken by a Samoan international, 3-4 are taken by old war hourses who are unlikely to be fit and in form for 2015. not a lot of options left.

I actually think hika is pretty good, importantly he's a very good lineout thrower. He should be being used more, and should have been selected for the WC.

I really like the look of McDonald at the Crusaders. I think he had his breakout performance a few weeks ago. He played almost a whole game and was very good. Good enough I think to start some games ahead of Flynn.

SBW, hard to comment on his future until it's clear. Things were looking like he would stay in NZ with him going so well and the NZRU allowing him to box. But all the cloak and Dagger around his contract negotiations suggest he is going to league after all. if he does he will leave behind a very ****** off NZ public. I'm not sure what to think about that scenario yet. We have a big mid fielder ready made in Robbie Fruen but he's a 13 and needs work on his defense, Kahui can play 12 and actually would be a really exciting combination with smith. Nonu is still around obviously. Crotty is a great prospect but not that Size/presence at 12 that SBW/Nonu have.
Ehhh - I think Sam Whitelock has done quite a good job of that from the get go. I don't tihnk he's missed that much if Ali is sent packing to host whateer show they have lined up for him (or that show with Rigga).

If SBW had outright said he's staying/going from the onset; and didn't have an F'd up manager, then I see less people being iffy at him. For now, I'll take it. But if this charade continues, then you can see more people turning against it.

My greatest concern is no longer who will replace Carter and McCaw as I think the new guys have shown they can be replaced, my only real worry now is whether we have a replacement captain.

In that role McCaw is hard to replace.
I've always though Read is the natural replacement.

MCCaw is probably ir-replaceable as a Captain. But I think Read is a more than fine fill-in.

also, looks like the ab's biggest problem is depth :)
I see what you did there. :lol:
 
The problem I always see with Ali Williams being in there because of experience, is that I have never seen any leadership qualities in him, ever. If it was Brad Thorn? Fine, he's a leader and is a total professional on and off the field. If it was Chris Jack? Same again. Ali Williams has always had discipline problems on and off the field and while he's older now and doesn't get into as much trouble as he used to, I'd hardly call him a leader.

He's always seemed to have been benifitted by having a great rapport with the coaches, but I'd much rather him not fill a jersey and let the outstanding new locks around have a go. Retallick, Whitelock, Romano, Eaton, Boric, Bekhius are all better options in my opinion, have have been in much better form.
 
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also is the impact of SWB at 12 rather than Nonu. Nonu is a tricky customer but SBW has a few more skills he brings to the table and maybe even more effective at sucking in defenders than Nonu, I think Sonny's defense is better as well,his strong point is his urgency getting back into the line after he's made a tackle and that is one of Nonu's major flaws so the gap in that area is vast. And we saw his kicking game come into action as well.

midfield: pretty much sorted, SBW and Smith are a great combination, Smith as good as ever and SBW growing all the time and when Nonu does get his chance it will be worth the price at the gate just for that. he has a history of bouncing back when he's under selection pressure. Some nice dry black powder saved for the Rugby Championship.

I don't agree at all. At times Nonu probes at his defenders which hold them off making their tackle until the final moment in case he wrong foots them and breaks free, Sonny on the other hand just runs it straight at them league style so they know there is only one option. He also has developed his passing game a hell of a lot and I think Nonu's passing game is very underrated. Sonny has the devastating offload, but in reality, it's been around for aeons he's just the one who used it more than enough to be recognised for it. I also wouldn't say he's more effective at sucking in defenders either, Nonu brings in the same amount. I don't think I've seen Nonu leave a "vast" gap in a black jersey, Nonu is actually good on defense, don't know where you got the major flaw from

I'm not bagging Sonny at all, I think he is a great athlete but I just don't like people praising him up and giving a proven man like Nonu less credit where it is due. And IMHO Sonny had 2 quiet games and then a blinder in a game where everyone pretty much stood out. It's the crunch games where Nonu has proved he's a match winner, Sonny may also become one some day but that day has yet to be written in history so please, give Ma'a more credit.
 
Overall a great analysis Larksea! A few thoughts:

Hookers: Agree that we need to get a younger hooker involved soon. Though Hore is still playing good rugby, I think it is pretty obvious he is slowing down quite a bit. I think Elliot is the pick of the 'younger' hookers, but he really needs to establish himself as first choice at the Chiefs. He's had a couple of great games for the Chiefs, but been very quiet in others - he needs to add some consistency to his game.

Props: Only three props used, but there could be some changes for the Rugby Championship. I'd be surprised if they take 5 props, as the squad is to drop down to 28 players for this tournament. Woodcock, Franks, and Franks will be there, and if Faumuina is fit he could well be the 4th prop. If they do again take 5 props, both Ben Afeaki and Toby Smith could push their way into the squad with good performances during the business end of the season.

Loosies: This will probably be one of the toughest decisions come the Rugby Championship. It has been great to see how well Cane went - I wonder whether he will be able to force his way into the Chiefs starting lineup now? You would have to think McCaw, Cane, and Read are certainties, with Thomson, Vito, and Messam fighting for two spots. While Messam certainly had the most impressive game of the three, what needs to be taken into account is that basically the whole 22 looked fantastic against Ireland in the 3rd test - who knows how dominant Thomson or Vito would have been had they started the match? Thomson was one of the few strong performers in the beaten pack the week before, and while Vito didn't get much of a chance, he was the first choice 6 at the start of the series (and the primary cover for 8). For me it is Thomson vs Messam for the last spot, and this may well be decided by Super Rugby form.

Halfback: Like others I would have liked to see Perenara backing up Smith, but given he is out I'd like to see Ellis on the bench coming the Rugby Championship (but I suspect we will see Weepu again).

Centres: Will be interesting to see who out of SBW and Nonu get the nod come the Rugby Championship. Given Kahui is out, Ellison should get in the 28-man squad.

Outside Backs: With all of the outside backs performing pretty well there is certainly plenty of competition. With Jane back there is even more competition. Depending on how many outside backs they take in the squad either 1 or 2 of Guildford, Gear, Smith, and Savea look set to miss out. If they take Smith (which I assume the will, though it is not guaranteed if they believe Jane, Ellison, and Barrett provide another fullback cover) they probably have plenty of cover for the right wing (with him and Jane), hence Guildford ability to play on either wing becomes less valuable. Again Super Rugby performances will likely play a big part in determining who gets in the squad.
 
As an outsider, I thought Vito looked good until his injury and while Messam also looked good, anyone would have looked good in that game such was the level of surrender/general overall team performance. That seems a live fight to me, assuming McCaw is not moved to 6. To me, that would be a mistake - but then I like big wrecking balls at 6, and feel that you need a tight five that really takes it up and around in the loose if you go with what is effectively two 7s. And that doesn't seem the All Black way at the moment, the tight five seem to be mainly hitting rucks, so you'd need to change things around.

The only criticism I'd level at the team is against the props. The Irish did not send the world's strongest scrum, particularly not with Declan Fitzpatrick on, and really I think you should have been more comfortable than you were with them on. I'm looking forwards to seeing how New Zealand go against Argentina, they seem to be the only team with a NH approach and strength in the scrum, and we'll see if the weakness I thought was there really exists. Seem to recall it was mainly with Ben Franks on, and not the starting pair as well - are there players up and coming who can displace him?
 
Excellent analysis Lark.

I'm still concerned about our depth at Hooker. If it were as easy as popping down to K-road for a recruitment drive then we'd be sweet as. But it's not! Hopefully some kids at the Under-20s have put their hands up at the number 2 position.

ya i was also thinking about this for some time now and have been looking at Dane Coles??? hell who else :D
 
As an outsider, I thought Vito looked good until his injury and while Messam also looked good, anyone would have looked good in that game such was the level of surrender/general overall team performance. That seems a live fight to me, assuming McCaw is not moved to 6. To me, that would be a mistake - but then I like big wrecking balls at 6, and feel that you need a tight five that really takes it up and around in the loose if you go with what is effectively two 7s. And that doesn't seem the All Black way at the moment, the tight five seem to be mainly hitting rucks, so you'd need to change things around.

Though I'm not yet convinced about a 6. McCaw 7. Cane 8. Read trio, I don't think the balance would be too bad. Yes you are lacking a 'big wrecking ball 6', but Cane could in many ways fill that role, as he is certainly a 'wrecking ball 7'. He is a big guy - he is listed at 1.89m and 103kg, but I'd be surprised if he was that light, and is a very powerful ball runner - he'd be a more powerful ball runner than most of New Zealand's 6's (certainly more powerful than Thomson). In addition McCaw has evolved into a very effective ball runner in recent years too: there would be few openside flankers in world rugby that would be as powerful as him. Given both McCaw and Cane are both very strong ball runners I think that trio could potentially be effective (though personally I would still stick with a 6. Vito 7. McCaw 8. Read trio at this stage)

The only criticism I'd level at the team is against the props. The Irish did not send the world's strongest scrum, particularly not with Declan Fitzpatrick on, and really I think you should have been more comfortable than you were with them on. I'm looking forwards to seeing how New Zealand go against Argentina, they seem to be the only team with a NH approach and strength in the scrum, and we'll see if the weakness I thought was there really exists. Seem to recall it was mainly with Ben Franks on, and not the starting pair as well - are there players up and coming who can displace him?

New Zealand's biggest issue at scrum-time is the loss of Brad Thorn, who is regarded by many as the top scrummaging lock in world rugby. In addition in the 1st two tests the had Brodie Reatallick in the tight-head lock role, and he is normally a loose-head lock. While he certainly looks to have the size and power to become a good scrumamger in the tight-head lock position I think he needs far more experience in the position. The scrum actually got worse too when he was subbed off and Ali Williams (again usually a loose-head lock) was in the tighthead lock role. The New Zealand scrum looked far more secure in the third test when we have a genuine tight-head lock in the side (Luke Romano).

In terms of propping options, we do have a number of young props coming through, but at this stage Ben Franks is still our best bench prop option (as he can cover both sides). Though he can play on both sides, he is certainly better on the loose-head side than the tight-head side, which is a bit of an issue. Charlie Faumuina will certainly be an option in future - he would have been in the current squad had he not been injured. He is a strong ball runner, and is improving his scrummaging, but does make a few mistakes around the field. We do have a number of promising tight-heads coming through - the likes of Ben Afeaki and Ben Tameifuna (who is only 20), but neither are probably good enough on the loose-head side to be bench options at this stage, while Toby Smith is probably a good enough loose-head, but lacks a lot of experience at tight-head.
 
I would definitely agree that McCaw/Cane could be effective. The most effective possible unit however is what I doubt - and, should Cane be better than McCaw, I'd question whether McCaw brings as much to the team as an out and out 6, and for how long he'd continue to do so.

And it just goes to show why two prop benches need to be brought in I guess - I'm guessing Ben Franks would be your 2nd TH of choice when this does come in?
 

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