Leicester Tigers v Llanelli Scarlets - HEC Semi Final

[Triniquint]

As much as i hate to say it Leciester deserved to win.

Personally, i would never condone the style of play that Triniquint proposes. I would hate to be a supporter of the team that just plays boring rugby to get the results.
It might sound like a Welsh thing, and i think it's a part ofof psychee, but I would rather support a team that plays entertainingg rugby and doens't quite make it all the way, than support a team that plays forward oriented rugby and wins trophies.
Becuase to me, as a supporter, as much as i would dearly love to see my team win silverwear, at the end of the day they are there to entertain me.

I'm not here to collect some sort of moral high ground as my team rakes in the silverwear.
I'm here to have a good time, and i am absolutely incapable of enjoying myself if the game is all about the slow, hit-em-hard drive-em-back forwards attitude.

So as idiotic as this may sound you can take the role of Indiana Jones.
Nobody expects their team to win all the time, but sometimes the persian swordsman comes through flawlessly and makes a legend out of their efforts ala Wales 6 nations Grand Slam '05.
[/b]

I was being flippant in my metaphors, actually, and apologise - although the essence of what I was saying is correct. I didn't, though, propose anything. However, Andy Goode's chip ahead that created one try was an example of very good back play. I honestly didn't see much difference between the two teams style of play, and Llanelli in no way produced this mythical 'champagne' rugby that everyone goes on about. I too enjoy scintillating runs, dummy's, side-stepping, passing along the line type of rugby. Even now, when I see such a move that goes the length of the pitch and ends up in a try, it never fails to bring me to my feet with a roar of joy - and here's a thing: regardless of which team scored it.

But sometimes this doesn't happen, and if an opposing team allows it to happen all the time, without taking measures to prevent it, then they are naive and mugs. Maybe flinging the ball out wide, along with off-the-cuff type one arm behind the back passing etc, can work - but it is sometimes more luck than good judgement, and enjoyable (if not to say lucky) if it comes off, and the cheek of it makes me laugh.

But it isn't necessarily good rugby. In a sense, you are indeed attempting to take some kind of moral high ground regarding an interpretation of YOUR idea of how 'clean' rugby (if that's the term) ought to be played. Truth is, ask any true fan if he wants to see his/her team win, or play this 'marvellous' rugby, and lose.

The forwards are more than just an integral part of the team, they are the heart of the team, the 'engine room' that powers the team, and such flashing, sparkling, rugby as you advocate seems only to happen if the forwards provide the ball, and the back row forwards are first to the breakdown and secure the ball once again. Dominant forwards can 'unleash' the backs. The aim is, I would guess, to try to achieve a balance.

This was, in my view, seen in the Leicester v Llanelli match. A good balance, between two good teams, one of whom had to lose.

C'est la vie.......

 

[Rugby_Cymru]

Although i want to respond, arguing things like i'm taking i'm indeed taking a higher moral ground, yadda yadda yadda.
And spinning my argument (winning or losing with style etc.)

The one line i have to point out is this:

...and Llanelli in no way produced this mythical 'champagne' rugby that everyone goes on about.
[/b]

Honestly? Mythical?

No, you're right, they didn't play the champagne rugby, but to call it mythical, that suggests a case of amnesia or you just haven't watched the Scarlets this season, have you?

Apologies for not putting my all into the argument, i've not long come home from work.

 

[Triniquint]

Although i want to respond, arguing things like i'm taking i'm indeed taking a higher moral ground, yadda yadda yadda.
And spinning my argument (winning or losing with style etc.)

The one line i have to point out is this:

...and Llanelli in no way produced this mythical 'champagne' rugby that everyone goes on about.

Honestly? Mythical?

No, you're right, they didn't play the champagne rugby, but to call it mythical, that suggests a case of amnesia or you just haven't watched the Scarlets this season, have you?

Apologies for not putting my all into the argument, i've not long come home from work.

You're also right, I confess to not having watch Scarlets other than that match with Leicester. In which case, I must stand corrected if they have produced such rugby, match after match. By 'mythical' I tried to convey how rare it is - certainly for two opposing teams. I just think that whilst this is good rugby to watch, it is counterable, and the stemming of it is also just as skillful in its own way, and part of the thrust and riposte of the game.

 

[shazbooger]

I just think that whilst this is good rugby to watch, it is counterable, and the stemming of it is also just as skillful in its own way, and part of the thrust and riposte of the game[/b]

Agreed.

Its all well and good shoveling the ball left and right in an attempt to generate space, but if you cant compete effectively at the breakdown, your chances of quick ball, and the space that comes with it, are greatly diminished.

Its not that the Scarlets didnt play their usual game, its not that they didnt play well, Leicster simply made a mess of the breakdown on so many occasions that they stopped them gaining the momentum they needed. Adding to this, the Leicster defense blitzed on so many occasions that the the Scarlets struggled to get ball through hand.

People say that Leicster play boring rugby. I dont know. Sure didnt Munster do that for the past 5 years. The difference is, Munster have rarely been that dominant, there is always drama, and there is always an atmosphere when they play.

 

[Rugby_Cymru]

Munster epitomise boring rugby in my opinion.

 

[loratadine]

i agree, i HATE watching munster play more than any english side lol, and that is HUGE sentinment from someone who hates anything english as much as me.

 

[stormmaster1]

THey have the players with great talent in the backs, and i do not concede that they play an immensely boring game.
However, the backs are used in a very structured disciplined manner. That's not a bad thing because it plays to the strength. But from what i see, Leicester lack that sense of creativity in the backs. Everything stems from Numbers 1 - 10 and it's an area heavily conentrated on (As it should) but if reliant on the backs there doesn't seem to be much flair.

I get the feeling that if the backs were given a bit more freedom, then they could cause so much damage, rather than wait for the forwards to run out of options before receiving the ball.
[/b]

Good point in that tigers' backs could be used to greater effect, but having said that part of the tactics of rugby is nullifying your opposition strengths and playing to yours. For Leicester that meant keeping possession, keeping the defence organised and preventing scarlets from getting quality ball.

From a Welsh point of view i think the ospreys and scarlets need to improve either the amount of turnovers they get, and the amount of quick ball they get versus a top pack. S williams finished a brilliant 75m try from a turnover in the EDF, and the Ospreys were only dangerous when either with turnover ball or quick ball. Scarlets similarly needed to compete at the breakdown to develop their game. Leicester needed to not let the game get loose.

 

[Triniquint]

I just think that whilst this is good rugby to watch, it is counterable, and the stemming of it is also just as skillful in its own way, and part of the thrust and riposte of the game[/b]

Agreed.

Its all well and good shoveling the ball left and right in an attempt to generate space, but if you cant compete effectively at the breakdown, your chances of quick ball, and the space that comes with it, are greatly diminished.

Its not that the Scarlets didnt play their usual game, its not that they didnt play well, Leicster simply made a mess of the breakdown on so many occasions that they stopped them gaining the momentum they needed. Adding to this, the Leicster defense blitzed on so many occasions that the the Scarlets struggled to get ball through hand.

People say that Leicster play boring rugby. I dont know. Sure didnt Munster do that for the past 5 years. The difference is, Munster have rarely been that dominant, there is always drama, and there is always an atmosphere when they play.
[/b]

Pretty much what I was trying to say. The balance of a good team has to be that the forwards are as good as the backs. It's tremendous having fast, whippety, backs - but if they cannot get the ball quickly, or lose it at the breakdown, line-outs, scrums, or whatever - they can only be so good. I read somewhere that batsmen makes run, but bowlers win matches. Well, backs score tries, but forwards win matches - well, pretty much.

I thoroughly enjoy rugby, full stop. Some matches are turgid as the backs are perhaps inadequate, and it becomes a muscular forward tussle. I always look for the occaisonal moment when the whole becomes greater than the sum of its parts - and something 'clicks', and flows beautifully.

The Ireland v France match at Croke Park was frantic, fast paced, and good - but not exactly beautiful.

Still, each to their own eh? Hate filled or otherwise......

 

[shtove]

I think only the Leinster backs have upset that 'forwards win matches' rule in recent seasons - there's been some big games where they've notched up the tries from distance on 30-40% possession. But then they've never won the HEC.

The France-Ireland match was too patchy, schizophrenic from both sides.

Apart from the ABs November slaughterings, the most beautiful piece of rugby in recent internationals was Ireland's first half against Australia in a sleeting gale at Lansdowne Road.

 

[Cymrurugbyfan]

An all english final, what a party :mellow: