June International Test: South Africa vs. Ireland [3rd Test] (25/06/2016)

[TRF_stormer2010]

Guys, everyone have their point and we are goig to talk passed each other because one is focussing on a case by case basis while the other is making a comment from a more general POV but lets not bicker amongst each other. Fact is that racial quotas in SA sports and the drive to 'transform' is nothing but institutional racism and exactly because of that question marks will be hanging ver every black player's head from our perspective and we have every right to feel marginalized as a people because we are in fact being discriminated against. I agree there is a wedge in place and a racial divide in SA but lets not ignore the fact that lrgely its being driven by our current government since it serves them well to do so.

 

[JohnKA]

Guys, everyone have their point and we are goig to talk passed each other because one is focussing on a case by case basis while the other is making a comment from a more general POV but lets not bicker amongst each other. Fact is that racial quotas in SA sports and the drive to 'transform' is nothing but institutional racism and exactly because of that question marks will be hanging ver every black player's head from our perspective and we have every right to feel marginalized as a people because we are in fact being discriminated against. I agree there is a wedge in place and a racial divide in SA but lets not ignore the fact that lrgely its being driven by our current government since it serves them well to do so.

Agree 100 % , thing is that now most of the black players are there on merit and I have no problem with that I back them 100 % but in the future there will be quota players that will be terrible and the public will have a go at them so all this system is going to do is bring disaster not only for the Team but the countries fight against racism

 

[SomeOke]

I don't see you disagree with regard to Mvovo though. Is that because he's not a Stormers player? Is it because he was replaced by a former WP player? Or was it maybe just because Combrink is better than him? I thought Mvovo was one of our better performers in the first test, but in the 2nd test he was just awful, and was rightfully replaced. We all agree that Combrink deserved his chance and he took it with both hands and proven that he deserves to be a bok.

Perhaps your provincial favouritism is getting the better of you?

You're probably right here, and honestly I was a bit grumpy when I wrote that post last night, largely due to the massive negativity in the SA public getting me down.
In the end provincial bias is probably a little like institutional racism, in that as much as you insist it doesn't exist for you, it still plays a quantifiable factor in your viewpoints.

That said I'm still going to have my say .

Kolisi may have had 15 caps already but most of those weren't "proper" caps. The only time he almost had a full game was when Arno Botha got injured and he got MotM, other than that I certainly don't think he has let us down before (other than in the last test of course).
Whitley has had 5 caps and until the last test hadn't done all that much, there was still a fairly prevalent belief that he was a good super rugby player but not Springbok level (a Keegan Daniel if you will).

Basically what I'm trying to say is that Kolisi has had 1 bad game for the Bokke, and almost immediately the entire SA public jumped on it and is now calling him a useless quota player, perhaps it has nothing to do with race, but honestly I doubt it. Considering our history and even some of the things that come out of my father's mouth, racism is not stone dead in white South Africans and I do think it plays a role in public opinion whether or not we want to admit it.

Lwazi Mvovo can probably also feel a bit aggrieved to be under so much fire, especially considering he was close to our best player in the first test - that said, he has specific weaknesses that specifically clash with Ireland's strengths (Their kicking game and his high ball ability) not to mention Combrink is just so much better than him in almost every respect it's hard to justify his selection.


All I'm trying to say is this - Yes quotas are wrong and are sinking SA rugby, but I also believe racism still exists in public opinion and we are more inclined to crucify our black players when they play badly, than our white players; its so deeply ingrained in some of us that we can't help it at this point. Perhaps I'm just a self-hating white liberal who doesn't know what I'm talking about, but it's honestly how I feel about the public response sometimes.

Lastly Kolisi has made 4m's per carry and has missed 2/16 tackles in his last two games - is that really bad enough to justify all of this hate?

 

[TRF_heineken]

You're probably right here, and honestly I was a bit grumpy when I wrote that post last night, largely due to the massive negativity in the SA public getting me down.
In the end provincial bias is probably a little like institutional racism, in that as much as you insist it doesn't exist for you, it still plays a quantifiable factor in your viewpoints.

That said I'm still going to have my say .

Kolisi may have had 15 caps already but most of those weren't "proper" caps. The only time he almost had a full game was when Arno Botha got injured and he got MotM, other than that I certainly don't think he has let us down before (other than in the last test of course).
Whitley has had 5 caps and until the last test hadn't done all that much, there was still a fairly prevalent belief that he was a good super rugby player but not Springbok level (a Keegan Daniel if you will).

Basically what I'm trying to say is that Kolisi has had 1 bad game for the Bokke, and almost immediately the entire SA public jumped on it and is now calling him a useless quota player, perhaps it has nothing to do with race, but honestly I doubt it. Considering our history and even some of the things that come out of my father's mouth, racism is not stone dead in white South Africans and I do think it plays a role in public opinion whether or not we want to admit it.

Lwazi Mvovo can probably also feel a bit aggrieved to be under so much fire, especially considering he was close to our best player in the first test - that said, he has specific weaknesses that specifically clash with Ireland's strengths (Their kicking game and his high ball ability) not to mention Combrink is just so much better than him in almost every respect it's hard to justify his selection.


All I'm trying to say is this - Yes quotas are wrong and are sinking SA rugby, but I also believe racism still exists in public opinion and we are more inclined to crucify our black players when they play badly, than our white players; its so deeply ingrained in some of us that we can't help it at this point. Perhaps I'm just a self-hating white liberal who doesn't know what I'm talking about, but it's honestly how I feel about the public response sometimes.

Lastly Kolisi has made 4m's per carry and has missed 2/16 tackles in his last two games - is that really bad enough to justify all of this hate?

Fair enough, and you are entitled to your opinion, but in my view, a lot of us are striving for perfection, and a lot of the starters now in the Bok team are lacking in that department, and of course we will look with magnifying glasses at certain players. It's not necessarily hatred, but more a sign of mediocrity that makes so many fans so angry. Don't get me wrong, I like Kolisi, I think he's a very good player, but he's yet to play as well as he does for his franchise. I think it's a bit unfair to compare him on Springbok performances with Whiteley though. Remember that Whiteley didn't always play in his position, in one game he had to play in the backline when Lambie got injured and we had no more backline reserves left.

If we look at the previous 7's for South Africa, they were all legends of the game, and I fear that Kolisi will not be as great as they were. Guys like Ruben Kruger, Andre Venter, Juan Smith comes to mind. They alone struck fear into their opponents, Kolisi doesn't. But he's not the exception here, I think a lot of starters are in that same pool as Kolisi. Other teams don't fear us anymore. And our blindside flanker was one of those positions where we always had some kind of bulldozer to strike fear into opponents. Kolisi doesn't have that attribute, and perhaps I'm being overcritical of him because of that, but my opinion of him has nothing to do with the colour of his skin.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

TBF though, @SomeOke, a lot of white players have come under the public's wrath in the past off the back of one (or more) poor displays as much as Mvovo and Kolisi (I actually think he hasn't copped much criticism? I might be out of the loop thugh) have in this series. Its just the way the SA fanbase is. Luckily the coaches tend to not be as hot and cold as us fans though sometimes they do probably tend to 'carry' off form players too long.

Think of Ruan Pienaar, Janne du Plessis, mid-carreer Habana, JdV, Morne Steyn, Zane Kirchner, Willie e Roux and ATM Vermeulen, De Allende and Malherbe at least as much as Mvovo and certainly more flack than Kolisi? We are a fickle bunch and demand results. This is where the quota system comes in and unfairly it des put black players in a highlighted position- its as unfair towards those players as it is to any white player.

 

[JohnKA]

TBF though, @SomeOke, a lot of white players have come under the public's wrath in the past off the back of one (or more) poor displays as much as Mvovo and Kolisi (I actually think he hasn't copped much criticism? I might be out of the loop thugh) have in this series. Its just the way the SA fanbase is. Luckily the coaches tend to not be as hot and cold as us fans though sometimes they do probably tend to 'carry' off form players too long.

Think of Ruan Pienaar, Janne du Plessis, mid-carreer Habana, JdV, Morne Steyn, Zane Kirchner, Willie e Roux and ATM Vermeulen, De Allende and Malherbe at least as much as Mvovo and certainly more flack than Kolisi? We are a fickle bunch and demand results. This is where the quota system comes in and unfairly it des put black players in a highlighted position- its as unfair towards those players as it is to any white player.

Malherbe is not on par at all same with willie and they have been heavy under fire from the public , Willie even being booed by fellow south Africans in the second test

 

[Ospervat]

You gotta love this....

Error Tobias blames Jake White for backline woes!

http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/Springboks/bok-backline-woes-stem-from-white-era-20160623

And all this time I thought it was Jan Van Riebeeck

 

[Groundhog]

You gotta love this....

Error Tobias blames Jake White for backline woes!

http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/Springboks/bok-backline-woes-stem-from-white-era-20160623

And all this time I thought it was Jan Van Riebeeck

Fun fact Jake White is rumored as Schmidt's replacement.

 

[George Ford]

On the Kolisi matter..

Before this series started, I wouldn't have picked Kolisi as a starting player for he Boks. He was 'relatively' good for his franchise in SR as he trumped most of his opposing players in the tournament (Baring in mind, the Stormers run-in of games was relatively easy compared to a lot of other SA sides this year). His form could so easily have afforded him a position among the top 3 flankers in SA, but not the best. But when it comes to selecting the national squad and more so the run-on team, the decision to choose the best player for any position should also be taking into consideration his likely opponent for that place on test level. And I think everyone could agree that Kolisi could not really be compared with likes of a Pockock, Matt Todd, or even a Sean O'Brien (unfortunate exclusion for the Irish). Also, everyone knew Flo & Duane were going to be dead-starters from the beginning, so there was only really 1 spot left in the loose.. I think AC chose him mostly as he worked with him before, and he made him work, effectively. So one can't blame the coach's confidence in him.

But, now after 2 tests, surely the results stands for itself. Yes - Kolisi shouldn't be the only player to get blame for the whole team's blinder for the 1st 120 mins or so, but we can now say that he did get 'enough' opportunity. He did play better than both Duane & Flo in the 1st test, but the Boks lost, therefore one would've thought everyone (incl. him) should've stepped up. But it seemed like bad to worse and his substitution does coincide with the swing in the game (and inevitably the whole series!!!)

My ideal backrow/loosetrio combo (before the start of the series) would have been (if not for the future): 8. Duane 7. Whiteley 6. Flo. I think Vermeulen was everyone's pick ahead of Whiteley for 8 at the start. However, at the time I felt Whiteley's form in SR this year particularly warranted his inclusion as a starting berth for the Boks. At this stage he so easily can be named SA Rugby player of the year. I would've included him on the wing if needed (ha haa), cause he showed to be the type of player that would've excelled in any position, given the opportunity, as his confidence levels are so high that he can inspire the players around him. I think the success of the Lions team this year is testament to that, and the Boks only felt 40 minutes of it.

Imagine the possibilities

 

[TRF_heineken]

Malherbe is not on par at all same with willie and they have been heavy under fire from the public , Willie even being booed by fellow south Africans in the second test

To be fair, we booed the whole team at half time (which Adriaan apparently didn't hear, maybe he's deaf). We booed Elton for kicking kak, we booed Frans for giving away penalties, we booed Willie for his aimless kicks... The difference was that Willie made up for his mistakes. Frans kept on where he left off in the first test, and Elton also made up with getting the backline running.

You gotta love this....

Error Tobias blames Jake White for backline woes!

http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/Springboks/bok-backline-woes-stem-from-white-era-20160623

And all this time I thought it was Jan Van Riebeeck

Shouldn't Errol blame the backline coach then?? Jake White has nothing to do with the current team or players, he has only coached Willie, Mvovo and Pietersen, in the history of his involvement with SA Rugby.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

So here comes the team announcement..

- - - Updated - - -

Shouldn't Errol blame the backline coach then?? Jake White has nothing to do with the current team or players, he has only coached Willie, Mvovo and Pietersen, in the history of his involvement with SA Rugby.

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't same Allister Coetzee Jake White's backline coach?

- - - Updated - - -

Fun fact Jake White is rumored as Schmidt's replacement.

That is interesting. TBF I think he would find it easier than most to take over from Schimdt. He also puts a lot of value on system and the Irish team seems to thrive in that type of an environment if I'm any judge?

- - - Updated - - -

15 Willie le Roux, 14 Ruan Combrinck, 13 Lionel Mapoe, 12 Damian de Allende, 11 JP Pietersen, 10 Elton Jantjies, 9 Faf de Klerk, 8 Warren Whiteley, 7 Siya Kolisi, 6 Francois Louw, 5 Pieter-Steph du Toit, 4 Eben Etzebeth, 3 Frans Malherbe, 2 Adriaan Strauss (captain), 1 Tendai Mtawarira
Substitutes: 16 Bongi Mbonambi, 17 Steven Kitshoff, 18 Julian Redelinghuys, 19 Franco Mostert, 20 Jaco Kriel, 21 Rudy Paige, 22 Morne Steyn, 23 Lwazi Mvovo

Whoop-whoop! I'm happy enough with the selection. I see it as a balance struck between rewarding form and not making too many changes. Hope the highlighted guys on the bench get at least 30.

One change in the backs, one in the forwards and two injury forced changes in the bench.

Really hoping we can pull this series through. I will not be making any predictions though I've been so wide off the mark in the first two. My original thought was that the third test will be the one where we struggle so I hope I continue to be dead wrong.

 

[JohnKA]

I would really like Warren as bok captain

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I would really like Warren as bok captain

I'm with you. I know I probably won't be in the majority here and Vermeulen and Strauss have been huge Bok servants but for me;

2 Du Plessis / Marx
8 Whiteley (c)

16 Marx / Van der Merwe

I would not at all be opposed to only selecting locally based players so might as well ignore Bismarck's name there. I don't for a second dismiss the potential impact those players can make but they are just too much of an unknown factor and I've seen too many players being based overseas and simply not being up to speed coming back for the Bokke; Juan Smith's nightmare in our loss to Argentina, Pienaar every time, Jaque Fourie didn't even pass fit when looking for a comeback last year, Du Preez and Louw and Vermeulen ATM.

These player play more rugby than our local guys, more attritional rugby as well and usually are less accessable to the test coach. Also, we should look at improving our performances in SR. IMO that's the best way to get more out of our test players or rather making sure the guys that get called up are up to speed.

 

[JohnKA]

I'm with you. I know I probably won't be in the majority here and Vermeulen and Strauss have been huge Bok servants but for me;

2 Du Plessis / Marx
8 Whiteley (c)

16 Marx / Van der Merwe

I would not at all be opposed to only selecting locally based players so might as well ignore Bismarck's name there. I don't for a second dismiss the potential impact those players can make but they are just too much of an unknown factor and I've seen too many players being based overseas and simply not being up to speed coming back for the Bokke; Juan Smith's nightmare in our loss to Argentina, Pienaar every time, Jaque Fourie didn't even pass fit when looking for a comeback last year, Du Preez and Louw and Vermeulen ATM.

These player play more rugby than our local guys, more attritional rugby as well and usually are less accessable to the test coach. Also, we should look at improving our performances in SR. IMO that's the best way to get more out of our test players or rather making sure the guys that get called up are up to speed.

I also want only local based players in the bok setup , I do think we have a problem at hooker adriaan is good but still lacking that x factor in Bismarck and brute strength I think vermeulen can go back to France w have the local guys to have a very good loose trio , would like to see the du preez twins in the loose trio with kolisi maybe

 

[SomeOke]

I'll stop my antagonizing now promise.

As for the side it's basically as good as can be expected, I think most people (including myself) would like to see Kriel starting in their somewhere but it is quite rare for a new player to start rather than coming off the bench. Good luck to Whitley in his first start huge match for him, I'm still 50/50 as to whether he is international quality but I'll be more than happy to be proven wrong!

Most importantly Combrink is in the starting 15, it automatically makes our back three more dangerous and less susceptible to aerial threats.

That said the Irish should still beat us based on the first two games (and not being at altitude), the guys are all going to have to lift their game, we certainly look good on paper but we just haven't gotten many performances out of these lads.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I watched the announcement as well as the interview afterwards during my lunchbreak. Man, AC is really growing on me as a coach, he gave clearcut answers and gets straight to the point. Even at one stage he said straight to the one journalist "I'm the coach, I select the team, you are welcome to your opinion".

His explanations for the selections is understandable, even the reason on why he's sticking with Malherbe. He said that Frans didn't give away a single penalty at scrum time, but was always penalised at the rucks for coming in from the side. AC said that Frans was being over-excited and then infringed, even though AC has had discussions with the referees about this.

On one hand it's good that there isn't too many changes and on the other hand maybe it's a bit of conservativeness shown by the coach. I'm happy with Whiteley and Combrink starting, as well as Kitshoff and Kriel getting a shot off the bench.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I watched the announcement as well as the interview afterwards during my lunchbreak. Man, AC is really growing on me as a coach, he gave clearcut answers and gets straight to the point. Even at one stage he said straight to the one journalist "I'm the coach, I select the team, you are welcome to your opinion".

His explanations for the selections is understandable, even the reason on why he's sticking with Malherbe. He said that Frans didn't give away a single penalty at scrum time, but was always penalised at the rucks for coming in from the side. AC said that Frans was being over-excited and then infringed, even though AC has had discussions with the referees about this.

On one hand it's good that there isn't too many changes and on the other hand maybe it's a bit of conservativeness shown by the coach. I'm happy with Whiteley and Combrink starting, as well as Kitshoff and Kriel getting a shot off the bench.

Already up on YouTube as well. What I find weird is how Coetzee pronounces all the Afrikaans names bar 'Jantjies' as if he isn't Afrikaans-speaking himself?

 

[TRF_heineken]

Both teams have been announced and added to the OP. CJ Stander is back from his suspension, and it will be Eoin Reddan's last test as he will be retiring after this match.

 

[Groundhog]

Biggest surprise is O'Halloran's selection. We'll see how his Defence holds up and I'm worried about his positioning under the high ball but really excited for him too. If we're talking form he's been Ireland's top FB all year.
Reddan has been a great career and in his prime was one of the most important and useful players in the country. Glad Stander is back. Hope he gets the homecoming game he's worked so hard for. Ol ding and Jackson need to take no **** and set defensive markers from the off or they will be hugely targeted. Murphy will have a huge job policing the 10 channel and shielding Jackson. Whatever about his missed tackles Jackson shouldn't have had to make as many tackles as he did. Healy has finally got his chance. If it turns out we need to be defensively dominant in the final 20 I wouldn't use him, but if we're chasing a game he would be a useful man to have.

 

[munstermuffin]

Biggest surprise is O'Halloran's selection. We'll see how his Defence holds up and I'm worried about his positioning under the high ball but really excited for him too. If we're talking form he's been Ireland's top FB all year.
Reddan has been a great career and in his prime was one of the most important and useful players in the country. Glad Stander is back. Hope he gets the homecoming game he's worked so hard for. Ol ding and Jackson need to take no **** and set defensive markers from the off or they will be hugely targeted. Murphy will have a huge job policing the 10 channel and shielding Jackson. Whatever about his missed tackles Jackson shouldn't have had to make as many tackles as he did. Healy has finally got his chance. If it turns out we need to be defensively dominant in the final 20 I wouldn't use him, but if we're chasing a game he would be a useful man to have.

I think it's correct. Not much of surprise. TOH is best 15 available. Reddan deserves a last run out before he retires. He's been good servant to Irish rugby. Team except maybe Ross over Furlong is our best and even that call is right as Furlong can impact and Ross is fresher after rest.
My god though that back line has the potential to make my sheets messy if they get space.