Izzy Folau

[BiggusLaddus]

A special thing that only religion can do, though, is make perfectly nice, decent people do or say horrible things.

I'm not so sure religion is the only thing that can do that. I think the general point of most forms of propaganda is to influence people in to holding certain opinions on subjects they are generally ignorant of.

How many people have or had grandparents who were absolutely lovely as long as you didn't ask them about black people?

 

[Welsh Exile]

I'm not so sure religion is the only thing that can do that. I think the general point of most forms of propaganda is to influence people in to holding certain opinions on subjects they are generally ignorant of.

How many people have or had grandparents who were absolutely lovely as long as you didn't ask them about black people?

True, but I would be interested in what helped form those ideas on black people. You might find, in some cases at least, this too was shaped by religion. But you make a fair point.

I should've related it to the more extreme examples of moral deprivation that we see in the form or suicide bombers or genital mutilation. Those acts are exclusively conducted by religious people.

Inagree thigh, while I think a lot of older generations views on homosexuality stem from the bible I'm not so sure the same applies to old racists. Would be interesting to see if anyone has done a study on it.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

There's loads of good religious people. In fact, I'd go as far as to say the majority of religious people are good (but I hold the opinion most people at their core are good people religion or no religion)

A special thing that only religion can do, though, is make perfectly nice, decent people do or say horrible things. I have devout family members who are nice enough and you'd think they're good people if you met them. Ask them about their views on gays and other religious dogma **** and then a of a sudden your opinion changes.

As Hitchens said, there's nothing moral that a religious person can do that an atheist can't. But there's loads of abhorrent moral things that only religious people can do (genital mutilation, suicide bombers etc etc)

Emmmm yeah no thats very wide of the mark. Non religious people are still capable of being coerced into doing awful awful things. Nazism and the transition of ordinary people to SS soldiers etc is demonstrative of that.

Saying that "only religious people" can do moraly reprehensible things is either super blinkered or intentionally false.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Emmmm yeah no thats very wide of the mark. Non religious people are still capable of being coerced into doing awful awful things. Nazism and the transition of ordinary people to SS soldiers etc is demonstrative of that.

Saying that "only religious people" can do moraly reprehensible things is either super blinkered or intentionally false.

See above. I phrased it poorly. There are terrible things that only religion can make people do like suicide bombers or genital mutilation. I would also say a lot of people's views on homosexuality stem from religious teachings.

 

[McTallshort]

Emmmm yeah no thats very wide of the mark. Non religious people are still capable of being coerced into doing awful awful things. Nazism and the transition of ordinary people to SS soldiers etc is demonstrative of that.

Saying that "only religious people" can do moraly reprehensible things is either super blinkered or intentionally false.

absolutely but Nazism and communism in its most extreme forms are no different than religion. Its the worship of a figurehead that you must obey without question.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

absolutely but Nazism and communism in its most extreme forms are no different than religion. Its the worship of a figurehead that you must obey without question.

It's an attempt at a soulless replica of religion, maybe - theres a reason idolatry is a sin. To just say it's the same thing though isn't really conducive to good debate.

See above. I phrased it poorly. There are terrible things that only religion can make people do like suicide bombers or genital mutilation. I would also say a lot of people's views on homosexuality stem from religious teachings.

extreme examples of moral deprivation

This is the bit that I take issue with - everyone is capable of awful things - designating those two examples as the most "extreme examples" is odd I think and it seems like your opinion of them is worse because of the religious link.

Why is a suicide bombing worse than a normal bombing in your mind? Would 7/7 have been any less horrific if it hadn't been a suicide attack in your mind?

It may just be poorly phrased / me reading it poorly so correct me if I'm misrepresenting you

 

[Yulia]

yes I think there is something "bigger" too but I refuse to live my only life in a way that is dictated to me by group who have read an old book and made some very dubious conclusions.

You can read this old book and make your own conclusions.
I understand what you mean though, that's why I can't call myself 100% religious as well

 

[Welsh Exile]

It's an attempt at a soulless replica of religion, maybe - theres a reason idolatry is a sin. To just say it's the same thing though isn't really conducive to good debate.


This is the bit that I take issue with - everyone is capable of awful things - designating those two examples as the most "extreme examples" is odd I think and it seems like your opinion of them is worse because of the religious link.

Why is a suicide bombing worse than a normal bombing in your mind? Would 7/7 have been any less horrific if it hadn't been a suicide attack in your mind?

It may just be poorly phrased / me reading it poorly so correct me if I'm misrepresenting you

Everyone is capable of awful things but not everyone is capable of mutilating someone's genitals or blowing up infidels or any other of the more barbaric practices you see in religious texts. These are, for the overwhelming majority, exclusively religious acts. So it's not about is it any worse than....... it's about the nature of these acts and the motivations behind them. Suicide bombers are almost exclusively motivated by religion. Is it any worse than, say, a high school shooting in America? Not really, but they're different and I guess that's the point I'm making. It would be good to cut out as much unnecessary immoral things as we can as we have enough on our plate to deal with that isn't motivated by religion.

I made the point initially as there isn't anything morally good a believer can do that a atheist can't but there are certain reprehensible moral acts that are almost exclusively done by religious people (genital mutilation etc etc)

 

[Kiwiwomble]

You can read this old book and make your own conclusions.
I understand what you mean though, that's why I can't call myself 100% religious as well

Do you consider yourself agnostic? That's where I fall if I have to label it, not a fan of organised religion…but I think there could be something else

 

[Groundhog]

I think you know but I'll humour you: homosexuality is immoral and unrepentant sinners go to the bad bad place. Ultimately there's no satisfactory explanation if you believe otherwise but here's mine: it doesn't lead to procreation, it's mostly about pleasure (but also adult diapers) and it is a choice (not the desire, but the act). God believers will deny potential pleasure to be closer to God, whose metaphysical love is far greater than any earthly pleasure, and then God gives us earthly joys anyway like hetero marriage and kids or a fulfilling career or life hobby or whatever else it may be.

Just busted an extra marital nut to this post

 

[Welsh Exile]

Do you consider yourself agnostic? That's where I fall if I have to label it, not a fan of organised religion…but I think there could be something else

By today's definitions most agnostics are atheist. Or "agnostic atheists"

You won't find many atheists who say "100% god doesn't exist" as it is unknowable and will likely always be unknowable but you can say there is a lack of evidence to believe in a creator and until such time when evidence presents itself I lack the belief that there are any gods

 

[McTallshort]

It's an attempt at a soulless replica of religion, maybe - theres a reason idolatry is a sin. To just say it's the same thing though isn't really conducive to good debate.


This is the bit that I take issue with - everyone is capable of awful things - designating those two examples as the most "extreme examples" is odd I think and it seems like your opinion of them is worse because of the religious link.

Why is a suicide bombing worse than a normal bombing in your mind? Would 7/7 have been any less horrific if it hadn't been a suicide attack in your mind?

It may just be poorly phrased / me reading it poorly so correct me if I'm misrepresenting you

It is the same thing, its the cult of personality to ensure a compliant population.

You must follow these commandments or you will go to hell is no different to you must do what the party orders or go to the gulag. Its a totalitarian mindset that stifles progress and learning and almost always ends up being bad for your average citizen.

Also idolatry is only a "sin" to Christians because they were converting people from other religions. There are quite a few idols in the Christian religion including Jesus and his mum.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

"Don't have gay sex, have children instead" is a weird one

 

[McTallshort]

"Don't have gay sex, have children instead" is a weird one

its one that many Catholic Priests followed to the letter...

 

[TRF_heineken]

Everyone is capable of awful things but not everyone is capable of mutilating someone's genitals or blowing up infidels or any other of the more barbaric practices you see in religious texts. These are, for the overwhelming majority, exclusively religious acts. So it's not about is it any worse than....... it's about the nature of these acts and the motivations behind them. Suicide bombers are almost exclusively motivated by religion. Is it any worse than, say, a high school shooting in America? Not really, but they're different and I guess that's the point I'm making. It would be good to cut out as much unnecessary immoral things as we can as we have enough on our plate to deal with that isn't motivated by religion.

I made the point initially as there isn't anything morally good a believer can do that a atheist can't but there are certain reprehensible moral acts that are almost exclusively done by religious people (genital mutilation etc etc)

Geez. suicide bombing is done by a religion, not by most religions, so I think there must be differential. Same could be said about Kamikaze.

As for genital mutilation, I think you need to broaden your scope here. As genital mutilation is a very common act in african cultures which has nothing to do with religion and more to do with Witchcraft/traditional cultural acts etc.

In South Africa our black cultures have initiation camps where many boys go and be circumsized as part of the initiation, but a lot of them are mutilated in the process. Especially when their manhood is a bit different than that of the person doing the initiation.

 

[McTallshort]

Geez. suicide bombing is done by a religion, not by most religions, so I think there must be differential. Same could be said about Kamikaze.

As for genital mutilation, I think you need to broaden your scope here. As genital mutilation is a very common act in african cultures which has nothing to do with religion and more to do with Witchcraft/traditional cultural acts etc.

In South Africa our black cultures have initiation camps where many boys go and be circumsized as part of the initiation, but a lot of them are mutilated in the process. Especially when their manhood is a bit different than that of the person doing the initiation.

Jews have been circumcising each other since the building of the pyramids.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Geez. suicide bombing is done by a religion, not by most religions, so I think there must be differential. Same could be said about Kamikaze.

As for genital mutilation, I think you need to broaden your scope here. As genital mutilation is a very common act in african cultures which has nothing to do with religion and more to do with Witchcraft/traditional cultural acts etc.

In South Africa our black cultures have initiation camps where many boys go and be circumsized as part of the initiation, but a lot of them are mutilated in the process. Especially when their manhood is a bit different than that of the person doing the initiation.

I'm probably not explain myself very well so apologies. I didn't mean to imply all these acts are committed by most religions. I also don't mean to suggest most people within these religions do these things. It's clearly obvious that most Muslims aren't suicide bombers I'm just saying they are religious in nature.

I would definitely put witchcraft in the same box as any other religion to be honest. It's all magic at the end of the day.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I'm probably not explain myself very well so apologies. I didn't mean to imply all these acts are committed by most religions. I also don't mean to suggest most people within these religions do these things. It's clearly obvious that most Muslims aren't suicide bombers I'm just saying they are religious in nature.

I would definitely put witchcraft in the same box as any other religion to be honest. It's all magic at the end of the day.

Fair enough.

I think a lot of the indigenous people from Africa have a lot of cultural traditions that would still be deemed immoral/unethical based on western culture/civilizations. For example, a lot of them oust an albino person from their tribe as they think that the albino person is the carrier of decease and might make them sick.

In the end it's some kind of belief they have, but perhaps not a religion or faith.

 

[ncurd]

Fair enough.

I think a lot of the indigenous people from Africa have a lot of cultural traditions that would still be deemed immoral/unethical based on western culture/civilizations. For example, a lot of them oust an albino person from their tribe as they think that the albino person is the carrier of decease and might make them sick.

In the end it's some kind of belief they have, but perhaps not a religion or faith.

Modern western/civilisation without trying to go full colonial a lot of those types of practices are definitely part of our past.

Even then the treatment of gay people during the HIV crisis in "the west" is only a stone throw from that kind of mentality.

 

[Which Tyler]

Note to self: Any person suffering from infertility or anyone who has gone through the menopause must abstain from sex because it can't lead to procreation.