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Izzy Folau

scotty507 said:
No this is off topic of izzy and i appologise but what do you lot think of raising kids gender neutral?

Back to the topic when is this all going ahead with Izzy vs RA if it does?
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What do you mean gender natural? No wanting an argument but you don't force kids into to being boys and girls they tend to just go that way. My eldest lad is mad into football, fortnight and Games workshop, my middle lad loves gymnastics and fortnight and my daughter loves wearing dresses and dolls. I certainly have not pushed them into any of these things but my daughter in particular was trying to get into high heels before she could walk. The only way too bring them up gender neutral would be to force them to not be any sex and that's not good for anyone.
 
Tallshort said:
What do you mean gender natural? No wanting an argument but you don't force kids into to being boys and girls they tend to just go that way. My eldest lad is mad into football, fortnight and Games workshop, my middle lad loves gymnastics and fortnight and my daughter loves wearing dresses and dolls. I certainly have not pushed them into any of these things but my daughter in particular was trying to get into high heels before she could walk. The only way too bring them up gender neutral would be to force them to not be any sex and that's not good for anyone.
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This subject is almost too touchy to have in this current climate as it just triggers people right, left and centre... but what I think he meant there (& correct me if I'm wrong @scotty507) is to raise a child without necessarily signalling to them what they 'are' (or are not) and allowing them to decide.
 
bushytop said:
This subject is almost too touchy to have in this current climate as it just triggers people right, left and centre... but what I think he meant there (& correct me if I'm wrong @scotty507) is to raise a child without necessarily signalling to them what they 'are' (or are not) and allowing them to decide.
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Exactly im not saying pushing them to have no gender, its not telling them they have a gender and raising them and letting them decide without pushing one way or another.

Just for the record i dont have kids, (hope to eventually) and its a curiousity this although not one im looking to implement. Not looking to start a big thing or trigger something as said above but suppose you have a point :)
 
scotty507 said:
Exactly im not saying pushing them to have no gender, its not telling them they have a gender and raising them and letting them decide without pushing one way or another.

Just for the record i dont have kids, (hope to eventually) and its a curiousity this although not one im looking to implement. Not looking to start a big thing or trigger something as said above but suppose you have a point :)
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I honestly think that 'society' has a far bigger impact on what a child thinks is and isn't acceptable these days but obviously supportive parents just helps people maintain a healthier mental balance.
 
I would like to know what vacuum they want to raise their kids in though, television still heavily markets things along gender lines and kids in schools will tell each other there is divide.
 
Tallshort said:
No wanting an argument but you don't force kids into to being boys and girls they tend to just go that way. My eldest lad is mad into football, fortnight and Games workshop, my middle lad loves gymnastics and fortnight and my daughter loves wearing dresses and dolls. I certainly have not pushed them into any of these things but my daughter in particular was trying to get into high heels before she could walk.
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And this is kinda the point very few parents force their kids to like certain things and act in a particular way (although it does happen). Most kids just turn out the way are because thats who they are. You could argue bringing up kids gender neutral is how most people act apart from the say your a boy or girl.

Many transgendered people will disagree though and say they were forced down certain routes. It probably why they are aware of it whereas those of who just grew with parents who never forced the issues just don't see what the problem is.
 
The way I look at it is, if I were a kid today and witnessed this Izzy Folau fiasco... my takeaway would be that people are allowed to be whomever or whatever they want these days and if anybody says any different (ie Izzy) 'society' makes a stand.

People are a little 'too' keen to start throwing toys out of prams these days though... as a 40 year old man (& a history buff) this is the most progressive that civilisation has ever been... and it's only getting more progressive. Some people react like we're living in the dark ages. Just 10 years ago very few eyelids would be battered by Izzy's statements, 20 years ago it would've been the norm... hell just 30 or 40 years ago it would probably have been celebrated.

Let's all just appreciate that we live in the best possible time ever (until tomorrow) to be a minority.
 
scotty507 said:
Exactly im not saying pushing them to have no gender, its not telling them they have a gender and raising them and letting them decide without pushing one way or another.

Just for the record i dont have kids, (hope to eventually) and its a curiousity this although not one im looking to implement. Not looking to start a big thing or trigger something as said above but suppose you have a point :)
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Mate when you hopefully have kids you find that forcing them into anything is an utter pain and you tend to have more pressing things to worry about like lack of money etc to bother trying to condition them. They do I believe look to you as their parents and how you behave and I suppose that will have some impact on them but kids (and I include myself when I was a kid) tend to find out themselves what they like and don't like. I certainly didn't push my lad to like Football or Nottingham bloody forest!
 
bushytop said:
People are a little 'too' keen to start throwing toys out of prams these days though... as a 40 year old man (& a history buff) this is the most progressive that civilisation has ever been... and it's only getting more progressive. Some people react like we're living in the dark ages. Just 10 years ago very few eyelids would be battered by Izzy's statements, 20 years ago it would've been the norm... hell just 30 or 40 years ago it would probably have been celebrated.

Let's all just appreciate that we live in the best possible time ever (until tomorrow) to be a minority.
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I'd agree except there is obviously a parallel that the rise of Trump and in the UK Brexit that there has been a backlash against social progressiveness.

I agree the world is only going to get more progressive and fighting against it is simply huge waste of effort.
 
ncurd said:
I'd agree except there is obviously a parallel that the rise of Trump and in the UK Brexit that there has been a backlash against social progressiveness.

I agree the world is only going to get more progressive and fighting against it is simply huge waste of effort.
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They're just two things (pretty big things I'll give you) in a much wider spectrum of opposing ideologies... I'd suggest (with some confidence) that on the whole, today the 'world' is far more left-leaning than right.

The video is spot on btw... the older I get the more prescient that ten seconds there becomes.
 
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I just think people are trying to use the gender neutral idea way too soon on their kids development. There is no point to have that from age 1 to 13. Let them be kids and do what they want. Kids only start to think about sexuality when they themselves are experiencing this first hand.
 
I think teaching kids about sexuality and gender is different to tell them who they are. Your going to have to explain "why Rachel has two Mommies", even a menstrual cycle can start very young.

Should say its 100% about awareness not explaining the ins and outs or enforcing an ideology.
 
ncurd said:
I think teaching kids about sexuality and gender is different to tell them who they are. Your going to have to explain "why Rachel has two Mommies", even a menstrual cycle can start very young.

Should say its 100% about awareness not explaining the ins and outs or enforcing an ideology.
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Had this very discussion this weekend with one of my friends as his brother in law is openly gay and in a civil union marriage. His son is 6 years old and his fear is that his son's making connotations towards what mommy is doing and what daddy is doing and why uncle kenny is not doing the same. He feels it is his responsibility to shelter his son from potential harm at home and school. It comes down to chores and doing things with dad and mom. The dad is an electrician by trade and mom is a high school teacher. Now the mom is in an uncomfortable situation, as she feels that if she as an example makes dinner, then that is something that women does, whereas dad makes food by way of having a braai and grilling the meat on the braai. Whereas uncle kenny, as a chef, does the cooking when he visits. So she feels that because their son is still so young, he can't make the distinction between a job/hobby and things that men/women do.

Hope I make sense?
 
Well you are all good thoughtful people.

I wrote a whole lot of stuff then my phone died. It can be summed up by saying that none of you have any idea what you are talking about. Maybe do some research before spewing misinformed opinions. And if you get on the defensive without having done the research, noting I'll be able to tell, I will ignore you so don't bother. This is not intended as a personal attack, I just wanted to say something in lieu of my original post, to let you know that doing research on the topic, and psychology in general, will help with your understanding.

I'm not arguing one way or the other here by the way, it's just that your rationales don't make sense.
 
I'm all up for a better understanding and have read a fair bit but don't pretend to fully understand, mainly because I'm cisgendered and basically had accept that as limitation to really understanding gender dysmorphia. I just try to help and support those who do how I can.

However I also don't really appreciate being called ignorant and I need to read up more with absolutely no reasoning to why that is. Its really not helpful or conductive.
 
Umaga's Witness said:
Well you are all good thoughtful people.

I wrote a whole lot of stuff then my phone died. It can be summed up by saying that none of you have any idea what you are talking about. Maybe do some research before spewing misinformed opinions. And if you get on the defensive without having done the research, noting I'll be able to tell, I will ignore you so don't bother. This is not intended as a personal attack, I just wanted to say something in lieu of my original post, to let you know that doing research on the topic, and psychology in general, will help with your understanding.

I'm not arguing one way or the other here by the way, it's just that your rationales don't make sense.
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Love this guy!
 
Umaga's Witness said:
Well you are all good thoughtful people.

I wrote a whole lot of stuff then my phone died. It can be summed up by saying that none of you have any idea what you are talking about. Maybe do some research before spewing misinformed opinions. And if you get on the defensive without having done the research, noting I'll be able to tell, I will ignore you so don't bother. This is not intended as a personal attack, I just wanted to say something in lieu of my original post, to let you know that doing research on the topic, and psychology in general, will help with your understanding.

I'm not arguing one way or the other here by the way, it's just that your rationales don't make sense.
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i havent post in this particular part of the tread just because i dont feel i know what im talking about....but thought everyone else was having a pretty civilised discussion....you've come in REAL HOT UW...saying "do your research" without context is pretty pointless...I can do my research and find several books describing the world as flat.

Might i suggest if you "know" something that you feel everyone else should know then share it...otherwise stay quiet (like i have until now)
 
Like Jabby I've also refrained from posting in the last few pages as the discussion has evolved into a more general one about gender and sex. While it was about Folau and the consequences of his actions I felt more comfortable being able to provide a reasonable view, but with some of the more recent pages it isn't questions or views I had spent a great deal of time considering.

However, from what I've read, and I have been reading, it appears pretty much everyone has been coming at this discussion with the general approach of "not being a dick" and wanting to positively share experience, knowledge and views.

With a lot of this discussion there isn't a right or wrong, black or white answer that people are presenting. None of us here appear to be able to reasonably claim absolute superiority of knowledge or insight on these topics, and so we are all learning and iterating our views on the basis of new information or experience shared. Which is exactly how it should be, and hopefully it continues over the next few pages.
 
Yeah, I also don't understand why we, who took part in the discussion are all now being ticked over the fingers with a vice. I'm sure there's plenty of research, but not only on the web, but also in books, schools, people, and everyday situations and life. I'm pretty sure my wife for one, has done her research as she has to work with kids everyday of her life and handle situations such as this. I for one, have a stance on the matter, and chose to raise my kids in a certain way, at least up to a point where they can think for themselves and choose for themselves.

One thing I don't get, and I saw it again yesterday on facebook, was people who I know have chosen to raise their kid gender neutral, and then have a massive gender reveal party to show the whole world????
 
Can I also add gender reveal parties for expecting parents crasses things known to man....

I expect those are what the raise gender neutral people are 'rebelling' against but that's just adding gasoline to a tyre fire.
 

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