Izzy Folau

[BobbyM]

... a beautiful person.

Thank you for your considered and thoughtful response; it is clear you're coming at this from a position of wanting to learn and to "do the right thing" which is admirable

I've just quoted the bit that resonated most with me. Being a good person, or as you put it a beautiful person, whatever the rationale for doing so, is all we can ever ask for from our family and friends.

 

[All Black]

Homophobia and bigotry are not things to be celebrated, they are things to be stamped out.

I agree but I also believe in free speech for all. I believe in stand up for what you believe in, no matter what. Folau has right to free speech just as gays (who I have friends and I will say the same thing to them) have had given to them.

Who here is actually gay? Or even have gay friends? some might talk for gay rights but can't stand the sight of them kissing right next to them.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I have gay friends, and I know we have LGBT members of this forum.

I do find it strange that people leap to the "You're just saying this to sound woke" line of argument.
As if being a decent human being is such a crazy idea

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

i love how a certain group of people can't fathom someone standing up for someone else cause the thought has never crossed their mind

and if you are equating being gay to holding religious beliefs... one is part of your brain chemistry and the other is a choice (in the western world at least)

 

[All Black]

I have gay friends, and I know we have LGBT members of this forum.

I do find it strange that people leap to the "You're just saying this to sound woke" line of argument.
As if being a decent human being is such a crazy idea

I think a decent human being can look at things from both sides and understand.

I have gay friends and I'm also a christian.

 

[del boy]

I have gay friends, and I know we have LGBT members of this forum.

I do find it strange that people leap to the "You're just saying this to sound woke" line of argument.
As if being a decent human being is such a crazy idea

I see "Woke" as a pejorative term

Too often people just utter statements blindly just to fit in & please their peer group

There's little nuance & empathy for differing ideas & theories

Social Media has exacerbated this as well PC Twitter & its reactionary tendencies are a stain on the human condition


https://www.smh.com.au/sport/rugby-...h-penalty-a-step-too-far-20190510-p51lz0.html


The above article does a good job highlighting the hypocrisy of many who are blabbering on about Folau when other professional rugby players

have committed much greater acts and have managed to resume their careers

 

[BobbyM]

I see "Woke" as a pejorative term

Too often people just utter statements blindly just to fit in & please their peer group

There's little nuance & empathy for differing ideas & theories

Social Media has exacerbated this as well PC Twitter & its reactionary tendencies are a stain on the human condition


https://www.smh.com.au/sport/rugby-...h-penalty-a-step-too-far-20190510-p51lz0.html


The above article does a good job highlighting the hypocrisy of many who are blabbering on about Folau when other professional rugby players

have committed much greater acts and have managed to resume their careers

Just to point out, while I get the jist of what the article is saying, it is wrong in a number of areas;

1) Folau has not been banned from playing rugby for life.
2) He doesn't have a lifetime ban from RA.
3) He has the ability to apply for a player licence to play in any other country in the world, and has earned sufficient income that travelling overseas shouldn't not be unfeasible from a financial perspective.
4) He has the ability to apply for any other job in any other sport which is aligned to his skills (RL and Aussie rules)
5) he didn't simply publish verbatim a bible passage, as is alluded to in order to conflate and obfuscate the situation
6) the other activities of individuals he highlighted are horrendous, and I would suspect they could be argued to just cause to terminate a contract. What he doesn't articulate is any of the details of those situations and the hearings that would've been held in terms of contrition, past record, mitigating circumstances etc. While their exclusion isn't an inaccuracy, it does again muddy the waters by creating false comparisons.
7) it is unclear whether the other instances involved people who continued to play for any Australia international side. Again that is vital context from a public perception/pride of the country type perspective.

 

[del boy]

Just to point out, while I get the jist of what the article is saying, it is wrong in a number of areas;

1) Folau has not been banned from playing rugby for life.
2) He doesn't have a lifetime ban from RA.
3) He has the ability to apply for a player licence to play in any other country in the world, and has earned sufficient income that travelling overseas shouldn't not be unfeasible from a financial perspective.
4) He has the ability to apply for any other job in any other sport which is aligned to his skills (RL and Aussie rules)
5) he didn't simply publish verbatim a bible passage, as is alluded to in order to conflate and obfuscate the situation
6) the other activities of individuals he highlighted are horrendous, and I would suspect they could be argued to just cause to terminate a contract. What he doesn't articulate is any of the details of those situations and the hearings that would've been held in terms of contrition, past record, mitigating circumstances etc. While their exclusion isn't an inaccuracy, it does again muddy the waters by creating false comparisons.
7) it is unclear whether the other instances involved people who continued to play for any Australia international side. Again that is vital context from a public perception/pride of the country type perspective.

Re. Points 1 and 2 You're being pedantic

He won't play again for any AUS team in Union as RU will refuse to register the contract NRL have stated likewise

If he's unable to get a contact that's in effect a lifetime ban via another means let's not be silly here

Point 3 does mean an upheaval to Japan or Europe No small task bear in mind his wife as well & her circumstances

Point 4 I've addressed point above NRL aren't going to accept him & Aussie Rules is a minor sport

Point 5 I don't get what you're saying TBH He merely gave a list bound for hell unless they REPENT

Point 6 Players like Kurtley Beale James O'Connor Matt Lodge Russell Packer etc have ALL committed acts much more

serious & egregious and have been able to continue their careers in Australia

Why is Folau being held to a differing standard for a less serious incident

Finally lets remember that Folau's views are shared by a significant proportion of the Pacific Islander Community in AUS, NZ & wider diaspora

Whether we like it or not That might be uncomfortable for those with a sensible disposition but reality is a bitter pill to swallow at times

#IStandWithFolau

 

[mania]

So basically, keep it secret is what he should've done.
It's a tricky one because a wee while ago, homosexuals had to keep their sexuality a secret or in the closet as they'd say.

slightly different you might think?
being a homo ended up in you being burned at the stake; ironically by those of folau's righteous ilk who felt that it wasnt enough for homo's to be burned in hell and burned them in life.
so no, the secrecy that gays had to go through is way different to the folau keeping his bigotted mouth shut.

 

[mania]

It's actually surprising the amount of Christians who take more stock in Old Testament rather then New.

i think you will be also surprised in the amount of Christians who condemn the old testament. i for one subscribe to the new testament . the old is full of wars. genocide and fear.
and i grew up in the samoan AOG and we dont condemn gays. we have a few in our church.

 

[BobbyM]

Re. Points 1 and 2 You're being pedantic

He won't play again for any AUS team in Union as RU will refuse to register the contract NRL have stated likewise

If he's unable to get a contact that's in effect a lifetime ban via another means let's not be silly here

You say pedantic I say factual. And the NRL saying he'll not get a contract with them has nothing to do with the punishment RA hand down.

Point 3 does mean an upheaval to Japan or Europe No small task bear in mind his wife as well & her circumstances

it could mean moving country yes. They'd have to make a family decision, up to them really.

Point 4 I've addressed point above NRL aren't going to accept him & Aussie Rules is a minor sport

There are 1.4m registered Aussie rules players in Australia. The grand final in 2018 was played in front of 100k spectators. I'm interested to understand how you define a minor sport in Australia.

Point 5 I don't get what you're saying TBH He merely gave a list bound for hell unless they REPENT

Apologies if my comment wasn't clear, I'll reword. The article talks in the same breath about quoting bible scripture verbatim and taking a bible quote and twisting it to suit ones belief system. The former, in suitable context, would be relatively uncontroversial, the latter is not. Additionally, do you view homosexuality as a state of being, of existing? As in, it is not an action, unlike drinking or having sex outside of marriage?

Point 6 Players like Kurtley Beale James O'Connor Matt Lodge Russell Packer etc have ALL committed acts much more serious & egregious and have been able to continue their careers in Australia

I note that the RA related individuals were a first incident and I believe unverified events for Beale and O'Connor respectively. The other two sound like thugs tbh and I'd have no interest having them in Union.

Why is Folau being held to a differing standard for a less serious incident

You'll note of course that it isn't a first incident, he's shown no contrition or other dispensations circumstances, which has helped to identify it as a high level breach. He's being held to the same standard as Beale and O'Connor, that being the RA code of conduct he agreed to. The others you mention you'd have to challenge their governing bodies on what they deem appropriate.

Finally lets remember that Folau's views are shared by a significant proportion of the Pacific Islander Community in AUS, NZ & wider diaspora

What's the relevance of this point? Just because some people share his views does not make them less homophobic.

Whether we like it or not That might be uncomfortable for those with a sensible disposition but reality is a bitter pill to swallow at times

I'm quite conscious that there are people who believe what Folau believes, which is why it is important to challenge those views where possible.

Just our of interest, if Folau had said that all Asians, or all women, or all Jewish people, are destined for hell, would you #standwithFolau?

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Point 4 I've addressed point above NRL aren't going to accept him & Aussie Rules is a minor sport

aussie rules is much bigger than union or league in Aus, they regularly get 50k+ to mid season mid table games

in saying that, he'll never play AFL either, they are famously LGBTQI+ inclusive, have a whole round dedicated to the community with special jerseys and everything

I can't remeber if this has been posted here on not

 

[mania]

Finally lets remember that Folau's views are shared by a significant proportion of the Pacific Islander Community in AUS, NZ & wider diaspora

WTF? wheres this come from??!!
also remember that there many many more PI's who arent bigots and dont think that gays should burn. many PI's who go to church and dont look down on a minority solely because they're different.
as i told my youngest when he asked why are people gay?
i told him "you like peanut butter, your brother likes jam. its the same thing"

my almighty living loving god doesnt condemn people just because they like jam or peanut butter

 

[smartcooky]

Fox Sports are reporting that the three-man Code of Conduct hearing panel have unanimously agreed that Folau is to be sacked.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/rugby/...t/news-story/3753edb4f05a73fc3f5d17fb179010b3

 

[mania]

Fox Sports are reporting that the three-man Code of Conduct hearing panel have unanimously agreed that Folau is to be sacked.

what a martyr complex. folau couldve avoided all this if he wasnt so pig headed and didnt want to make his life such a sundaySchool lesson.
cracks me up how he portrays RA and superRugby as "satans work".
get the fk over yourself izzy. your just a rugby player

 

[Derpus]

Point 6 Players like Kurtley Beale James O'Connor Matt Lodge Russell Packer etc have ALL committed acts much more

serious & egregious and have been able to continue their careers in Australia

James O'Connor got punted? Beale got away with being a drunken asshole but being a drunken asshole isn't necessarily worse than being intolerant. In fact, i generally think having a thoughtout and considered position that is effectively bigotry is much worse.

 

[Derpus]

Look at the brightside everybody - Folau wont be at the world cup for the Wallabies LOL.

Its not like we were winning with him in the team.

 

[Derpus]

I'm not homosexual and of all the homos I've met, there is not one that I hate. I feel sorry for the homos when I hear their stories of abuse and struggles to be accepted in todays society, even by their own loved ones. I believe in god but I also believe that the worlds big enough for us and homos to live in. I think it's good homos are now coming out and standing up for what they believe in, but thats also what Izzys doing.

It's a tricky situation in that - while we're finally getting homos to come out of the closet, at the same time, it feels like we're asking anti-homos to put their beliefs into a closet (I hope you get my drift). Social media plays a big part here and its new and we're making rules for it as we go. Should Izzy know that he can't post the same stuff that homo-hating Joe Bloggs does? of course he does. Would Izzy think thats fair that Joe can but he can't? of course not.

Man the substance of what you were saying was decent enough but your liberal use of the term homo is somewhat jarring.

The thing is, Christians in general aren't required to hide their beliefs. The problem arises from an organizational perspective when you want to run an all-inclusive game. How do you do that? a code of conduct that says that if, for whatever reason, your religion requires you to discriminate you must keep it to yourself if you want to be employed by that organization. This simply means that in the public sphere you can't actively propagate the discriminatory beliefs. In private - you can do what you want.

I think it makes perfect sense. Izzy knew the conditions of the contract he entered into and willingly breached it.

In a more general sense, the tide is definitely turning against Christian (and other religious) based discrimination. Historically, these beliefs have been used to justify a lot of pretty bad behavior, and its no longer allowed to fly. You can still hold the opinion but don't expect the general public to respect it.

 

[All Black]

slightly different you might think?
being a homo ended up in you being burned at the stake; ironically by those of folau's righteous ilk who felt that it wasnt enough for homo's to be burned in hell and burned them in life.
so no, the secrecy that gays had to go through is way different to the folau keeping his bigotted mouth shut.

Israel Folau is A.O.G. You said you were A.O.G but yet you typed the words 'those'. Typo?

Like I said before - I feel sorry for the gays and I have gay friends but I also encourage others to stand up for what you believe in. You lose that ability to tell people to stand up for what they believe in if you don't leave Izzy to speak his piece. I don't believe in what Izzy has to say obviously but I do believe in free speech and christianity.

You mention P.Is that condone homosexuality but we both know that there are far more P.Is that don't. All the pacific islanders rugby players that have supported Izzy (and even some that had to retract their statements) are just the tip of the ice berg. Yes Samoans have a fair amount of fafa'fines and so they do have acceptance of gay people but there is still far more P.Is who don't like homosexuality. I wouldn't say they hate them but just a dislike.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Do you think racists should stand up for what they believe in?