Is Warren Gatland Simply a Lucky Coach?

[munstermuffin]

I've seen this posted previously about 2005 AB's being superior to 2017. I'm not sure this claim would stand up to analysis. Off top of my head 2017 would have superior locks, No.8, half back, First Five and Fullback (Ben Smith) and would be equal in a number of other positions.
I don't enjoy Gatland's tactics (Never have - right back to his coaching Waikato). I think despite what he states he's "defence obsessed" and don't feel he utilised flopping, fullback Williams and that speedy left winger enough. But I don't think "weak 2017 AB's" is a valid argument.

Whatever about Lions. Do you really think the 2017 All Blacks would beat what we saw in 2005?
No way. That team was 1 of the best performing teams ever. This was a poorer All Blacks team (not Gatlands fault as you can only beat whats in front of you) but there is no way the 2005 and 2017 teams are in same bracket

 

[General Melchett]

He really does remind me of Sir Alex Ferguson. Very good (if not a bit old school) coach who can motivate, create a siege mentality, get results while keeping the dressing room. The issue more lies with him as an individual who outside his own camp can be perceived as a spiteful and stubborn, very partial to holding a grudge and will always show loyalty to those who may not necessarily be the most deserving.

 

[Penne Rara]

He took Ireland out of the rut they were in for all of the 1990s. Grand Slams with Wales in 2008 and 2012. Coaches the Lions to their first series win in 16 years and backs it up with a tied series against unquestionably the best team in the World. Air NZ Cup winner. Three time Premiership winner. European Cup winner. That's the record of an outstanding coach, not a lucky one.

Can't agree more with that. He is a great coach indeed.
But hell, do I not like his boring brand of rugby...

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Can't agree more with that. He is a great coach indeed.
But hell, do I not like his boring brand of rugby...

Agrred, I'm not a fan of his style particularly but it's hard to argue with results. He's produced that everywhere he's been. History will look back on him very kindly.

Every Lions head coach in the pro era has gone on to get to knighthood. When will we see him declared Sir Warren Gatland?!

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

There was some good fortune for him here but I don't see that with the Welsh side; they earn what they achieve. He had bad luck this year with Pivac at the Scarlets showing the Welsh can win honours with a flair and panache that must leave many scratching their heads.

If there are more stodgy displays from the Welsh national side in the next 9 months and they continue to lag behind all of their "home nation" rivals in the rankings then I can see an orderly changing of the guard coming.

 

[Scotty]

i magine they wouldve lost. eddie hasnt coached a team like the lions so wouldve totally fcked it up. this also includes schmidt.
gatland made his mistakes in aus and didnt repeat those. he landed in Nz with the complete ownership of the changingRoom. i doubt eddie wouldve had the belief of the non england players.
gatland did an amazing job that no other current coach wouldve been able to do.

I disagree tbh i think eddie would have done better in terms of selection and dealing with the media.
He coached aus to a RWC final in 2003 loss to england
Assistant coach to SA to win RWC 2007 win against england
Coached japs to a big win over SA in 2015
Then england to back to back six nations 2016/2017

Yes he hasnt done a lions team or one like but you cant deny his record or results.

And he prob wouldnt have picked howley as attack coach

I just think he would have done a better job, a draw in NZ is awesome achievement but we had it right there to win.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

i magine they wouldve lost. eddie hasnt coached a team like the lions so wouldve totally fcked it up. this also includes schmidt.
gatland made his mistakes in aus and didnt repeat those. he landed in Nz with the complete ownership of the changingRoom. i doubt eddie wouldve had the belief of the non england players.
gatland did an amazing job that no other current coach wouldve been able to do.

Schmidt won the European cup in his first year as a head coach, won the six nations in his first year as an international coach, I doubt it would have taken him long to adapt.

 

[profitius]

Schmidt won the European cup in his first year as a head coach, won the six nations in his first year as an international coach, I doubt it would have taken him long to adapt.

I don't doubt it. When Schmidt first took over Leinster they went on a losing run in the first month or two and there were even fans calling for him to be sacked.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I don't doubt it. When Schmidt first took over Leinster they went on a losing run in the first month or two and there were even fans calling for him to be sacked.

He lost 3 of his first four games and then won only lost to Ospreys and Clermont before new year. Only George Hook called for him to be sacked...

 

[mania]

ive never been a fan of gatland until this tour. gatland achieved something that many supposedly better coaches failed at.
gatland hands down did better than cliveWoodward and grahamHenry added together. yet still people say that others (eJones and schmidt) wouldve done better.
but neither eJOnes or schmidt were selected (and imo arent good enough). so all this summation of whether theyd do a better job is purely academic. neither were good enough to be selected for this job. gatland was and accepted it and showed absolute loyalty to the jersey and his team. loved gatland taking pot shots at the ABs .
gatland has survived close to the hardest tour in history and come away with a lot of deserved kudos.


ps - i hear that a lot NZ'rs dont want gatland as ABs coach because of his whining and shots at the ABs. think about it this way; isnt it better having him on the inside pssing out than to have him on the outside pssing in?

 

[profitius]

He lost 3 of his first four games and then won only lost to Ospreys and Clermont before new year. Only George Hook called for him to be sacked...

Besides that, I don't think he would have gotten the team to play as well as Gatland did.

 

[dullonien]

I'm completely torn on this subject.

I'm hugely grateful to Gatland for dragging us up out of the gutter (2007 RWC), and for delivering some great 6N Championships and Grand Slams. He identified that there was an area in the NH game that could be exploited, fitness, and he made sure Wales were fitter than any other NH side. The SH have always played at a higher tempo, so the difference in fitness was negligible against them, meaning we failed to gain the superiority needed to cancel out our poor attacking patterns. We relied at the time on the sublime Shane Williams to offer the spark if we couldn't generate an overlap through battering midfield.

Where Gatland really falls down has been with his choice of backroom staff, namely Howley and McBryde. He missed his opportunity to freshen up his backroom staff, and he's really paying for it now imo. We've mostly played a turgid style of rugby which often fails to get the likes of North and JD2 into space. Gatland has overlooked the likes of Tipuric and Hook (Ospreys also preferred Biggar at 10 then Hook, so not all on Gats), instead preferring more physical players.

Is he lucky? On the whole, no, but I think he was on this Lions trip to NZ. I do think that the combination between him and Howley has gone stale, if it ever had any life to begin with. If he surrounded himself with coaches who brought fresh, innovative ideas to the party, and embraced an open gameplan, he could certainly rediscover his relevance. But it's his choice of backroom staff, so that's a massive part of his coaching credentials.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

ive never been a fan of gatland until this tour. gatland achieved something that many supposedly better coaches failed at.
gatland hands down did better than cliveWoodward and grahamHenry added together. yet still people say that others (eJones and schmidt) wouldve done better.
but neither eJOnes or schmidt were selected (and imo arent good enough). so all this summation of whether theyd do a better job is purely academic. neither were good enough to be selected for this job. gatland was and accepted it and showed absolute loyalty to the jersey and his team. loved gatland taking pot shots at the ABs .
gatland has survived close to the hardest tour in history and come away with a lot of deserved kudos.


ps - i hear that a lot NZ'rs dont want gatland as ABs coach because of his whining and shots at the ABs. think about it this way; isnt it better having him on the inside pssing out than to have him on the outside pssing in?

Schmidt and Jones both stated they didn't want it, both are far superior to Gatland...

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

ive never been a fan of gatland until this tour. gatland achieved something that many supposedly better coaches failed at.
gatland hands down did better than cliveWoodward and grahamHenry added together. yet still people say that others (eJones and schmidt) wouldve done better.
but neither eJOnes or schmidt were selected (and imo arent good enough). so all this summation of whether theyd do a better job is purely academic. neither were good enough to be selected for this job. gatland was and accepted it and showed absolute loyalty to the jersey and his team. loved gatland taking pot shots at the ABs .
gatland has survived close to the hardest tour in history and come away with a lot of deserved kudos.


ps - i hear that a lot NZ'rs dont want gatland as ABs coach because of his whining and shots at the ABs. think about it this way; isnt it better having him on the inside pssing out than to have him on the outside pssing in?

Eddie Jones not good enough despite coaching 2 sides to world cup finals and coaching another side to a world record winning streak losing a grand total of 1 game in his time with England...? I'd say that's more than a match for what Gatland has on his CV. Look at it this way, in the things both coaches have tried to achieve, Jones has done better. Gatland has failed to make a world cup final, Jones has done it twice. Gatland has failed to have an unbeaten year, Jones has very nearly done it twice. Jones coaches the Brumbies to be the first non-NZ team to win the Super 12. Gatland has a **** poor record against the SH, Jones has a far superior record.

To use Lions victories as proof a coach would be better for the Lions over someone who hasn't coached the Lions is ridiculous.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Double post, delete plz

 

[ncurd]

Eddie Jones not good enough despite coaching 2 sides to world cup finals and coaching another side to a world record winning streak losing a grand total of 1 game in his time with England...? I'd say that's more than a match for what Gatland has on his CV. Look at it this way, in the things both coaches have tried to achieve, Jones has done better. Gatland has failed to make a world cup final, Jones has done it twice. Gatland has failed to have an unbeaten year, Jones has very nearly done it twice. Jones coaches the Brumbies to be the first non-NZ team to win the Super 12. Gatland has a **** poor record against the SH, Jones has a far superior record.

To use Lions victories as proof a coach would be better for the Lions over someone who hasn't coached the Lions is ridiculous.

Garland has only ever beaten South Africa once....EJ did it with Japan!

 

[TRF_Olyy]

he landed in Nz with the complete ownership of the changingRoom.

I'd question that, apparently he is not well liked amongst the players. Can't imagine any non-welsh from the Aus tour have fond memories.
Senior backs throwing the game plan out the window in the 2nd test, as well, suggests what they think of that. We'd have lost that game, and the series, without the Faletau try.

 

[mania]

I'd question that, apparently he is not well liked amongst the players. Can't imagine any non-welsh from the Aus tour have fond memories.
Senior backs throwing the game plan out the window in the 2nd test, as well, suggests what they think of that. We'd have lost that game, and the series, without the Faletau try.

wow hadnt heard that. makes those players childish and gatland even more of a miracle worker.

 

[mania]

To use Lions victories as proof a coach would be better for the Lions over someone who hasn't coached the Lions is ridiculous.

so what is it when a coach achieves the inconcievable? beats all the odds stacked against him and keeps his team together enough to draw the series?

 

[mania]

Schmidt and Jones both stated they didn't want it, both are far superior to Gatland...

i'll agree to disagree.