Is Super Rugby economically sustainable?

[SelimNiai]

It's funny I hear alot of people complain about ticket prices, but they're really not that expensive, I chose to have a half (4 game) season pass at The Blues, just can't make it to every game with kids and childcare etc. I went for the cheap option which is a General Admission ticket (so mainly the end stands), 4 games, $69 (NZD). An 8 game general admission ticket is $129 (NZD).

For the upcoming game against the Sharks at North Harbour, tickets range from $20 to $55.

Couldn't really say how that compares to average cost of living.

8 Super Rugby games for 65 quid? Sounds good to me

 

[Big Ewis]

huh...well what do you know....a sige thread has spawned a super serious thread. I think we REALLY need shhit to happen in Rugby...when's that H Cup final again ???!!!..

 

[SelimNiai]

huh...well what do you know....a sige thread has spawned a super serious thread. I think we REALLY need shhit to happen in Rugby...when's that H Cup final again ???!!!..

Its the first one where he asks a relatively decent question. He'll be back to "Rugby needs to play with a Icosahedral ball" threads soon

 

[SimonG]

It simply boils down to supply exceeding demand. NZ has a small population (very similar to here), the mainly Rugby going white population in SA is roughly the same figure as NZ, while Union in Aus has nowhere near the interest that League does. There just isn't the demand for tickets hence smaller crowds for club games, and unlike in England where club games are played in small grounds which look full (average attendance is around 11k) the stadiums in the SH are too big for many club games and so crowds are sparse. Having 20,000 attend a Heineken Cup semi at the 80k capacity Twickenham wasn't the brightest idea by the Rugby authorities. Sparse crowds are bad news for tv companies. Makes it very hard to sell the sport. For games played in big stadiums kids under a certain age should be let in free with an adult.

Agree there shouldnt be any complaints about Rugby tickets which are dirt cheap in comparison to football...65 quid would get you a cheap seat for one Premier League fixture at Chelsea.

 

[Shaggy]

It simply boils down to supply exceeding demand. NZ has a small population (very similar to here), the mainly Rugby going white population in SA is roughly the same figure as NZ, while Union in Aus has nowhere near the interest that League does. There just isn't the demand for tickets hence smaller crowds for club games, and unlike in England where club games are played in small grounds which look full (average attendance is around 11k) the stadiums in the SH are too big for many club games and so crowds are sparse. Having 20,000 attend a Heineken Cup semi at the 80k capacity Twickenham wasn't the brightest idea by the Rugby authorities. Sparse crowds are bad news for tv companies. Makes it very hard to sell the sport. For games played in big stadiums kids under a certain age should be let in free with an adult.

Agree there shouldnt be any complaints about Rugby tickets which are dirt cheap in comparison to football...65 quid would get you a cheap seat for one Premier League fixture at Chelsea.

In terms of supply and demand, there might be am over supply of games, there's certainly a lot of competition for the supporters dollar in Australia, but the teams have a loyal fan base in the traditional rugby areas, and usually get a decent crowd.

The main issues (in NZ anyway), is that you can pay for your Sky subscription for a month, for roughly the same price to attend one match, and that many families don't have the disposable cash to be able to afford to go.

The fan base for the teams are also spread outside of the main centres where most of the home games are held, so you have to factor in travel, meals, accommodation etc ... this makes attending a match, a special event (not a regular one).

 

[Jaguares]

Depends of the teams, some teams have good crowds. In NZ there are 2 teams with good crowds: Crusaders and Chiefs. This is because Canterbury and Waikato are rural areas with long tradition in Rugby Union. Highlanders is in a small town in the South of NZ, Dunedin (only 120,000) with many students from the University of Otago so that's an impediment to them. The most emblematic cases in NZ are Blues and Canes, they are in the biggest cities of NZ so is very sad to see small crowds flocking to their games.

SA has 3 big teams: Bulls, Sharks and Stormers. They have good crowds, the others teams (Cheetahs and Lions) have interesting crowds. SA is the SANZAR's member with the highest attendance, for this reason, year after year they get more power in SANZAR. In 2016 they will have 6 teams, one more than NZ or AUS.

Australia is a very different situation, they are the only country among countries with rugby tradition, where Rugby League is more popular than Rugby Union. So this is a big obstacle for them, even NRL isn't the most popular professional sport in the country, AFL is the most popular professional sport in Australia. Despite this, they have some places with a strong tradition in the Union as Brisbane, Canberra and Sydney. Among those 3 cities, Brisbane and Canberra have interesting crowds. Last year I spoke with the community manager of Queensland Reds and he said that Union is very popular in Brisbane, even he said that attendances of Reds are similar than Broncos (The NRL team of the city). Of the 3 big teams, which have lower attendance is undoubtedly Waratahs but from what I saw, this year has improved somewhat, I hope this is a sign that the Union will grow in Sydney. Melbourne and Perth are the cities with less tradition in Union but Force has an interesting crowd this year. I think the Rebels' situation is more difficult because in Melbourne the most popular sport is the f**king footy (Aussie Rules -AFL). However, Aussies from Perth appears to be more open and willing to give an important place to the Union, I hope Force continue improving to strengthen our sport in Western Australia.

 

[Canadian_Rugger]

These prices seem outrageously cheap IMO

Comparing Super Rugby to Canadian Pro Sports it is very affordable.

CFL Football -> Montreal Alouettes = $35.00 for the cheapest seats in the park, $250.00 for season tickets in those seats
NHL Hockey -> Montreal Canadiens = $50.00 for cheapest seats i.e. nose bleeds, $1200.00 for season tickets in those same seats
MLS Soccer -> Montreal Impact = $20.00 for cheapest seats, $250 for season ticket

 

[LittleGuy]

Yeah my local teams here in Canada/U.S.A. it's this for the cheapest seat in the stadium....

Values are Canadian except for Bills, which is US, about 8-10% more depending on where our dollar is at the moment.

CFL - Hamilton Tiger-Cats = $30 single, $240 for season tickets. 9 Regular Season games + 1 Exhibition

NFL - Buffalo Bills = $48 single, $400 for season tickets. 8 regular season + 2 Exhibition (The Bills have some of the cheapest tickets in the NFL, they also vary on which opponent they are facing, I've listed the very cheapest game)

MLB - Toronto Blue Jays = $11 single, $635.85 for season tickets. 81 regular season + Occasional exhibition (These are god awful seats, the next section is twice as expensive though with a much better view)

NBA - Toronto Raptors = $30 single, $635 season tickets. 41 regular season games + 6 or 7 Exhibition (See aboove also atrocious seats for Basketball)

MLS - Toronto FC = $20 single, $342 season tickets. 17 regular season games + a number of exhibtions and discounts on other competitions like the Canadian championship.

NHL - Toronto Maple Leafs = $75 single , ($2600?) season tickets. 41 Regular season games + 6 Exhibitions ( I couldn't find out season ticket pricing, the waiting list is so long I guess they don't need to really advertise it, my guess is listed as I'm sure it would be a few bucks off of normal price)

 

[Jaguares]

These prices seem outrageously cheap IMO

Comparing Super Rugby to Canadian Pro Sports it is very affordable.

CFL Football -> Montreal Alouettes = $35.00 for the cheapest seats in the park, $250.00 for season tickets in those seats
NHL Hockey -> Montreal Canadiens = $50.00 for cheapest seats i.e. nose bleeds, $1200.00 for season tickets in those same seats
MLS Soccer -> Montreal Impact = $20.00 for cheapest seats, $250 for season ticket

You can't compare Rugby Union with North American Sports. Rugby Union is very different than North American Sports.

North American Sports is just about MONEY, MONEY and more MONEY. You have millionaires who own their own team. Is like Mourad Boudjellal in Toulon but in your case is in ALL your teams in ALL your Leagues.

The NFL has 31 millionaire owners, only Green Bay Packers don't have a millionaire owner. Is the same situation in NBA, NHL or MLS.

 

[Canadian_Rugger]

You can't compare Rugby Union with North American Sports. Rugby Union is very different than North American Sports.

North American Sports is just about MONEY, MONEY and more MONEY. You have millionaires who own their own team. Is like Mourad Boudjellal in Toulon but in your case is in ALL your teams in ALL your Leagues.

The NFL has 31 millionaire owners, only Green Bay Packers don't have a millionaire owner. Is the same situation in NBA, NHL or MLS.

Not really, we love our pro sports just as much as you do. The Montreal Canadiens and the Toronto Maple Leafs are national icons in Canada and have wide support. While gates may not be as important in terms of revenue, there is a clear correlation between attendance and overall health of the sport. The Montreal Canadiens have been sold out of season tickets since 2004 and and to get season tickets usually takes several years of sitting on the waiting list.

Perhaps your national sport is not as healthy as you seem to think?

 

[Jaguares]

Not really, we love our pro sports just as much as you do. The Montreal Canadiens and the Toronto Maple Leafs are national icons in Canada and have wide support. While gates may not be as important in terms of revenue, there is a clear correlation between attendance and overall health of the sport. The Montreal Canadiens have been sold out of season tickets since 2004 and and to get season tickets usually takes several years of sitting on the waiting list.

Perhaps your national sport is not as healthy as you seem to think?

I never said: 'You don't love your sports'. So pay attention, please.

I just say that Rugby Union organization is different, money is managed by the Clubs and Unions. In the NHL the money is managed by a few millionaires.

 

[jonny24]

Good post CR. Conrad, I don't see what millionaire owners have to do with attendance. Seems to be working quite well here actually

 

[Canadian_Rugger]

I never said: 'You don't love your sports'. So pay attention, please.

I just say that Rugby Union organization is different, money is managed by the Clubs and Unions. In the NHL the money is managed by a few millionaires.

Just because the owners are millionaires (billionaires in most cases actually) doesn't change the fact that tickets for a match are far more expensive then rugby. It seems to me that rugby suffers from a gate attendance problem, which as I mentioned in an earlier post is usually indicative of the overall health of the sport. At least it certainly is in NA... if a team has poor attendance here they usually go under very quickly.

 

[Jaguares]

Good post CR. Conrad, I don't see what millionaire owners have to do with attendance. Seems to be working quite well here actually

You can't compare a HUGE country like USA with 300 millions of population with a country like NZ (4 millions) or even South Africa (50 millions).

Canada only has 3 teams in MLS, 2 teams in NBA, and only 7 teams of the NHL are from Canada, the rest of the 23 teams are from USA.

You don'tt have much population, Canada has only 30 millions. If you don't play in USA Leagues, I'm not sure if you could have as many crowds as today.

A Canadian Soccer League with only 3 teams?? A Canadian Basketball League with only 2 teams?? NHL with only Canadians teams (7 teams) ?? I'm not sure is you could keep your crowds. In that situation, you need more teams and more teams means more games for the same population. So you have the advantage to be the USA's neighbor, in sporting terms, Canada is a state of USA.

 

[Canadian_Rugger]

You can't compare a HUGE country like USA with 300 millions of population with a country like NZ (4 millions) or even South Africa (50 millions).

Canada only has 3 teams in MLS, 2 teams in NBA, and only 7 teams of the NHL are from Canada, the rest of the 23 teams are from USA.

You don'tt have much population, Canada has only 30 millions. If you don't play in USA Leagues, I'm not sure if you could have as many crowds as today.

A Canadian Soccer League with only 3 teams?? A Canadian Basketball League with only 2 teams?? NHL with only Canadians teams (7 teams) ?? I'm not sure is you could keep your crowds. In that situation, you need more teams and more teams means more games for the same population. So you have the advantage to be the USA's neighbor, in sporting terms, Canada is a state of USA.

Yes, Canada and the USA are essentially one sports market but I am not sure how this is even remotely relevant to us discussing cheap tickets and poor attendances in Super Rugby.

We could easily support far more NHL teams, it's just the present teams don't want the others coming in on their turf... Btw Rogers just signed a $5 Billion dollar tv deal to show NHL hockey in Canada (Yes I said $5 Billion dollars)

Hockey is by far the most popular sport in the country and attendances of our NHL teams are clearly indicative of that. All teams have a waiting list for season tickets and getting tickets to games can be very difficult. Hockey would be popular in Canada whether we had US support or not, that much is certain.

I find it disturbing that Super Rugby attendance is so low and think it is indicative of just how fragile Super Rugby actually is. We get better attendances at junior hockey games in Canada than most of your Super Rugby teams get.

 

[welshglory]

The fact that super rugby is basically a training camp for the national teams will always hold it back, especially in Australia but i guess there is no interest from SA or NZ (or the aus union, casual fans want to see a tribal comp) for it to be an entity in its own right in its own right

 

[Jaguares]

Yes, Canada and the USA are essentially one sports market but I am not sure how this is even remotely relevant to us discussing cheap tickets and poor attendances in Super Rugby.

We could easily support far more NHL teams, it's just the present teams don't want the others coming in on their turf... Btw Rogers just signed a $5 Billion dollar tv deal to show NHL hockey in Canada (Yes I said $5 Billion dollars)

Hockey is by far the most popular sport in the country and attendances of our NHL teams are clearly indicative of that. All teams have a waiting list for season tickets and getting tickets to games can be very difficult. Hockey would be popular in Canada whether we had US support or not, that much is certain.

I find it disturbing that Super Rugby attendance is so low and think it is indicative of just how fragile Super Rugby actually is. We get better attendances at junior hockey games in Canada than most of your Super Rugby teams get.

I know Ice Hockey is the most popular sport in Canada. What about Basketball or Soccer?? Because I also mention those sports. You may not have their own leagues of those sports with good crowds without the Americans

 

[Shaggy]

Yes, Canada and the USA are essentially one sports market but I am not sure how this is even remotely relevant to us discussing cheap tickets and poor attendances in Super Rugby.

We could easily support far more NHL teams, it's just the present teams don't want the others coming in on their turf... Btw Rogers just signed a $5 Billion dollar tv deal to show NHL hockey in Canada (Yes I said $5 Billion dollars)

Hockey is by far the most popular sport in the country and attendances of our NHL teams are clearly indicative of that. All teams have a waiting list for season tickets and getting tickets to games can be very difficult. Hockey would be popular in Canada whether we had US support or not, that much is certain.

I find it disturbing that Super Rugby attendance is so low and think it is indicative of just how fragile Super Rugby actually is. We get better attendances at junior hockey games in Canada than most of your Super Rugby teams get.

... Yes, that's helped by the fact that Canada has 7 times the population of New Zealand, a stronger economy, a better standard of living, and that the Hockey games are all held in indoor arenas, so warmth/general comfort aren't factors.

 

[Da Grappla]

It's so funny a sport which is regarded in England as an upper class entertainment, rugby, is cheaper to attend than the "working class hero" sport, soccer.

 

[LittleGuy]

You can't compare Rugby Union with North American Sports. Rugby Union is very different than North American Sports.

North American Sports is just about MONEY, MONEY and more MONEY. You have millionaires who own their own team. Is like Mourad Boudjellal in Toulon but in your case is in ALL your teams in ALL your Leagues.

The NFL has 31 millionaire owners, only Green Bay Packers don't have a millionaire owner. Is the same situation in NBA, NHL or MLS.

I wouldn't put the CFL and MLS in this category at all, player salaries on the whole aren't that high, and most teams do not turn a profit(or much of one) breaking even is about the best the owners can hope for.

The CFL is an all Canadian league with 9 teams and averages in the 27,000 ish fans per game range. I think it normally cracks the top ten in per game attendance world wide.